This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective. My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out. Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details. There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE. Cogent * Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google * Aggressive sales tactics Hurricane * Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations. What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost? Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it. As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming). I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP
GTT seems ok. TATA as well. Telia has some issues as far as I see. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:49 Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE - Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google - Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal - Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
-- Mehmet +1-424-298-1903
I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead. I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues. I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Viable Third Option? This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective. My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out. Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details. There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE. Cogent * Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google * Aggressive sales tactics Hurricane * Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations. What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost? Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it. As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming). I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[Image removed by sender.]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[Image removed by sender.]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [Image removed by sender.]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[Image removed by sender.]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
Second vote for NTT. Also, second vote for GTT. -- TTFN, patrick
On Feb 17, 2021, at 14:07, David Hubbard <dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead. I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues. I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.
From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Viable Third Option?
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google Aggressive sales tactics Hurricane Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions
Midwest Internet Exchange
The Brothers WISP
I second the motion for NTT. I would never connect to GTT again.....if you want to know why.....contact offlist. joe On 2/17/2021 1:58 PM, Patrick W. Gilmore wrote:
Second vote for NTT.
Also, second vote for GTT.
-- TTFN, patrick
On Feb 17, 2021, at 14:07, David Hubbard <dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead. I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues. I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.
*From: *NANOG <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> *Date: *Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM *To: *NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject: *Viable Third Option?
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
* Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google * Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
* Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> Image removed by sender. <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>Image removed by sender. <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>Image removed by sender. <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>Image removed by sender. <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Image removed by sender. <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>Image removed by sender. <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>Image removed by sender. <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> Image removed by sender. <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>Image removed by sender. <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
-- "However beautiful the strategy, you should occasionally look at the results."
"A Nation that forgets its past has no future." -Winston Churchill
Second for NTT. We have found that their pricing wasn’t to far off from HE. I can count on one hand in 10 years how many times we had issues and needed to contact them. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 14:06 David Hubbard <dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com> wrote:
I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead. I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues. I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along.
*From: *NANOG <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> *Date: *Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM *To: *NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> *Subject: *Viable Third Option?
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE - Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google - Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal - Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[image: Image removed by sender.] <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
Yep, unlike 3356 who could care less if you have an outage, NTT never fails to have a ticket opened and email to all the contact points within minutes of a BGP session going down, asking if we need any assistance. I’ve been really happy with their noc on debugging issues, and just proactive contact in general. The peering seems good, as does the pricing. Cogent honestly hasn’t been bad, but the v6 thing, to Google of all places, just makes their CEO look like a sh*t head; he needs to check his ego and just pay for the peering since Google doesn’t appear to be the one who will blink first. I mean how can you seriously sell a circuit to anyone in a data center and have a caveat that massive, that no other provider has. From: Dovid Bender <dovid@telecurve.com> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 4:50 PM To: David Hubbard <dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com> Cc: "nanog@nanog.org" <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Viable Third Option? Second for NTT. We have found that their pricing wasn’t to far off from HE. I can count on one hand in 10 years how many times we had issues and needed to contact them. On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 14:06 David Hubbard <dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com<mailto:dhubbard@dino.hostasaurus.com>> wrote: I’ve been pretty happy with NTT but their POPs can be limited; I’ve had to pick up waves to them, which sometimes still comes out ahead. I’m slowly dropping Cogent due to the v6 issues. I haven’t been able to try HE because they and a frequent colo provider I use (Switch) don’t seem to get along. From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+dhubbard=dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org<mailto:dino.hostasaurus.com@nanog.org>> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Date: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 11:52 AM To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Subject: Viable Third Option? This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective. My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out. Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details. There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE. Cogent * Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google * Aggressive sales tactics Hurricane * Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations. What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost? Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it. As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming). I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>Error! Filename not specified.<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>Error! Filename not specified.<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>Error! Filename not specified.<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>Error! Filename not specified.<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right. I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also have three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We have (from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I have to mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to your market. The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and Lumen/CL/Level3. Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall Telia: excellent relations, good service overall Tata: good relations, good service overall Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall Eric On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE
Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google
Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions (http://www.ics-il.com/)
Midwest Internet Exchange (http://www.midwest-ix.com/)
The Brothers WISP (http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/)
In the context of Montreal, to clarify, when you say Zayo are you referring to Zayo Canada (former AT&T Canada/MTS-Allstream), or AS6461, the original Abovenet AS which is Zayo USA's IP transit network? On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:17 AM Eric Dugas via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right.
I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also have three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We have (from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I have to mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to your market. The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and Lumen/CL/Level3.
Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall Telia: excellent relations, good service overall Tata: good relations, good service overall Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall
Eric
On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE - Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google - Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal - Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
I'm referring to AS6461. They're offering IP transit from AS6461 here since 2017 (the takeover of AS15290's facilities in Montreal/rest of Canada). Eric On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 8:32 PM Eric Kuhnke <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com> wrote:
In the context of Montreal, to clarify, when you say Zayo are you referring to Zayo Canada (former AT&T Canada/MTS-Allstream), or AS6461, the original Abovenet AS which is Zayo USA's IP transit network?
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 11:17 AM Eric Dugas via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
The details you mentioned about Cogent and HE are still right.
I'm managing an eyeball network and have Cogent in our blend but I also have three other Tier1s and VERY extensive peering (public and private). We have (from the cheapest to most expensive) Cogent, Telia, Zayo and Tata. I have to mention that we're based in Montreal so less choices compared to your market. The only two other Tier1s available in Montrea is GTT and Lumen/CL/Level3.
Cogent: difficult relations, good service overall Telia: excellent relations, good service overall Tata: good relations, good service overall Zayo: difficult relations, good service overall
Eric
On Feb 17 2021, at 1:49 pm, Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE - Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google - Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal - Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/>
Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/>
The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/>
On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 10:52 AM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> wrote:
This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective.
My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out.
Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details.
There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE.
Cogent
- Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE - Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google - Aggressive sales tactics
Hurricane
- Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal
This is only a downside for an ipv6 network that is single home behind cogent... which is ... already absurdly negligent. I say avoid both, but lower downsides with HE
- - Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes
I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations.
What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost?
Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it.
As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming).
I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements.
----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions <http://www.ics-il.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions> <https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange <http://www.midwest-ix.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix> <https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange> <https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP <http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> <https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp> <https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
I have seen pricing as low as ten US cents on a full 100 GigE port. In other words, $10K. Tier 1 provider for what it's worth. I think there are Tier 2 providers that can compete with Cogent and Hurricane on price. ________________________________ From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+rod.beck=unitedcablecompany.com@nanog.org> on behalf of Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2021 7:49 PM To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Viable Third Option? This is from the perspective of an eyeball network. I understand that content networks would have different objectives and reasons. For instance, I have little to no reason as an eyeball network to exchange traffic with any other eyeball network (aside from P2P games). For a content network, getting into the eyeball networks is their objective. My crystal ball tells me this thread will spiral out of control because people won't be able to keep it on topic, but it is a question that I hear VERY often. I also expect a lot of purely bad or outdated information to get thrown out. Please try to keep it on topic and not being pedantic over relatively unimportant details. There are two major low-cost providers, Cogent and HE. Cogent * Refuses to peer IPv6 with HE * Refuses to peer IPv6 with Google * Aggressive sales tactics Hurricane * Doesn't have Cogent IPv6 because of Cogent's refusal * Lack of communities for anything other than blackholes I know there are a variety of other providers such as Fusion Network that operate at similar price points, but are available in way fewer locations. What else is out there? Anyone else that isn't 5x, 10x the cost? Cogent and HE get looked down upon (and sometimes deservedly so), but when I talk to someone trying to sell me a port in 350 Cermak for 8x the cost of Cogent and HE, you better have a very good argument for why you're worth it... and they never do. "We're not Cogent." "and?" Many times I'm quoted transit that costs more than Cogent + IX + HE and they don't really have a good argument for it. As an eyeball, I join an IX and there goes 50% - 85% of my traffic and almost all of my traffic that anyone is going to notice or complain about if there are issues (video streaming). I do understand that enterprise eyeballs may have different requirements. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg>
participants (10)
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David Hubbard -
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Eric Kuhnke -
Joe Hamby -
Mehmet Akcin -
Mike Hammett -
Patrick W. Gilmore -
Rod Beck