Sounds like the UK is even more overdue for civil unrest/war than the US is. Haven't the idiots in government ever seen 1984? I can picture it now. The SAS storms into the next NANOG convention citing "national security" as their reason because we happen to be discussing ways to encrypt data in our in-band and out-of-band management networks. One worse, the folks in the UK sat back and allowed your government to take away your firearms. I'm not saying that the US is _much_ better off but, thusfar, we still have firearms and are allowed to use whatever encryption we damned well please. On Mon, 1 May 2000, John Payne wrote:

On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 08:27:40PM -0400, John Fraizer wrote:

...

PGP is your friend.

Not for UK folk: http://www.stand.org.uk/

-- John Payne jcapayne@att.com OpenNet Infrastructure Team, AT&T Global Network Services Mailpt C2E, c/o IBM North Harbour, PO Box 41 Portsmouth, PO6 3AU Tel - +44 (0)23 9256 1977, Fax - 23 9221 0543

On 04/30/00 10:14:22 PM jlewis@lewis.org wrote:

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, John Fraizer wrote:

...

PGP is your friend. On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Roland Dobbins wrote:

...

http://www.the-times.co.uk/news/pages/sti/2000/04/30/stinwenws01034.html

The new spy centre will decode messages that have been encrypted. Under new powers due to come into force this summer, police will be able to require individuals and companies to hand over computer "keys", special codes that unlock scrambled messages.

Sorry officer...I can't seem to remember my passphrase :)

I wonder if this will prompt people who care in the UK to frequently revoke/destroy/recreate their PGP keys. Otherwise, if forced to hand over your private key, they can read any old message they've archived on you.

Actually, it's worse. If you don't turn over the key when asked, you get 2 years of jail time. If you can't prove you don't have the key, you're considered guilty. If you publically mention these events, you can be jailed for 5 more years.

On Sun, Apr 30, 2000 at 11:14:56PM -0700, Chris Adams wrote:

Defeating Echelon involves only using standard techniques that are a good idea in any case (strong encryption and encrypting everything). This requires ISPs to install the wiretaps at their cost; coupled with RIP this means that you know the government will be recording your traffic and they can very easily require you to give them any encrypted traffic.

Of course you're right. Perhaps steganography tools will become more popular in the UK. --Adam

On Sun, 30 Apr 2000, Chris Adams wrote:

idea in any case (strong encryption and encrypting everything). This requires ISPs to install the wiretaps at their cost; coupled with RIP this means that you know the government will be recording your traffic and they can very easily require you to give them any encrypted traffic.

Doubt that this will happen with big companys like the one who has been sending me coasters...er...free trial CD's for years but, if we were to be "required" by some "authority?" to not only provide wiretapping capability but to PAY for them, I believe that I would have to draft a letter to all customers in that particular juristiction somewhere along the lines of: Dear Customer: Due to the complete and to total epidemic of "HUA Disease" (Head up Ass) that has swept through your governing powers, (Insert ASP/ISP/NSP Company name here) will cease to offer services in (Insert geographic location here) effective (insert deadline for wiretap install here). Additionally, (Insert ASP/ISP/NSP) is implementing routing policys immediately that will seperate routes from the free world from routes within (Insert geographic location here) and will be allowing our customers in the free world the option of preventing their networks from reaching those under the thumb of your government. --- I know. It's purely a political statement. Perhaps the UK would think differently about the situation if they found that they were now isolated from the rest of the free-thinking world. This also brings to mind some juristictional issues. What do you think I'm going to do if the "Home Office" calls me requesting my keys? I'll give you a hint. It's two words and the first one starts with "F". My key-pair is none of anyone elses business and since I'm not in the UK, what can the do about it? This seems to be a good way to put all of the UK owned ASP/ISP/NSPs out of business. Then again, that may be what the government wants.

On Fri, 5 May 2000, Peter Galbavy wrote:

...

I thought that we already had one of these and that it was called Echelon.

OTOH I thought Echelon was interested in *us* - not *you*. Us = rest of world, you = USA.

Peter

Oh, no.... They have a full time job just protecting us from ourselfs. (Or so they seem to think.) --- John Fraizer EnterZone, Inc