I was really looking forward to tuning into today's proceedings via my Real Player. Unfortunately this didn't happen for various reasons. Even though the MBONE was buggy at times, I could still manage to hear the speakers that I was interested in. I feel that we need to give Real networks a chance, after all they do have some "running code" and the shear number of players out there could be considered some form of "rough consensus",(yes and I know NANOG is not the IETF :) but what worries me is that with the MBONE, I or some of my collegues can "lend a hand " if the stuff isn't working, knowledgable people can rip into the code and maybe come up with a temporary fix or at least learn enough that the "next time" will be better. Perhapse Progressive Networks will take the not too subtle hint that today's performance provides and realize that they can't go it alone if they really want to scale to the size that I think they want to. There are folks out here that can help and are willing to help but maybe first PN needs to come down of their high horse and get somewhat of a clue. geoffw Virtual Sites