[stuff missing] When applied randomly to the Internet, I suppose that means if you can dial into a RAS and establish a PPP/IPCP session, but the RAS' connection to the Internet is down, then the service is up :-) [stuff missing] I seem to remember a large internet provider's service contract reading something to the effect of. "Your server is considered down if customer router cannot pass packets [or ping] with service provider's immediate upstream router." This is a functional description of the above for dedicated lines as customer aggregation routers never talked to the internet, so if there was a problem at a transit router you weren't getting anywhere. A modern contract I saw recently defined "up" for colocation purposes as "the customer's assigned gigabit port is available." Though available was not a defined term, one could not easily apply that to a ports' willingness to pass packets. One could say a congested port was not available though I guess. Deepak Jain AiNET