Suggestion; once on the 'night shift' stay put for at least three months... Sleep patterns take time to adjust. Jumping between day and night shifts will burn out even the most motivated employee. Mark Green
From: nanog-request@nanog.org Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 39, Issue 46 To: nanog@nanog.org Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:52:19 +0000
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Today's Topics:
1. 365x24x7 (harbor235) 2. Re: New hijacks, and lots of them (Ronald F. Guilmette) 3. Re: 365x24x7 (Peter Hicks) 4. Re: 365x24x7 (Charles Mills) 5. RE: 365x24x7 (Greg Moore) 6. Re: 365x24x7 (Steve Clark) 7. Re: 365x24x7 (Marshall Eubanks) 8. Re: 365x24x7 (Alex Brooks) 9. RE: 365x24x7 (Sanders, Randall K) 10. Re: 365x24x7 (Tony Finch) 11. Re: 365x24x7 (harbor235) 12. Re: 365x24x7 (Paul Graydon)
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Message: 1 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:14:05 -0400 From: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> Subject: 365x24x7 To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTimD9jYVzM_hv21y9LHzObR3RVG0YA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
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Message: 2 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 06:17:06 -0700 From: "Ronald F. Guilmette" <rfg@tristatelogic.com> Subject: Re: New hijacks, and lots of them To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <2971.1302873426@tristatelogic.com>
In message <5824.1302780126@tristatelogic.com>, I wrote:
http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-1.txt http://www.47-usc-230c2.org/20110414-snowshoe-2.txt
My apologies to anyone and everyone who tried to get at these files. It seems that my provider may perhaps have recently developed some rather odd ideas about packet filtering for static broadband lines. Until I can get the problem worked out, the following alternative URLs ought to do instead:
ftp://ftp.47-usc-230c2.org/pub/20110414-snowshoe-1.txt ftp://ftp.47-usc-230c2.org/pub/20110414-snowshoe-2.txt
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Message: 3 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 14:17:48 +0100 From: Peter Hicks <peter.hicks@poggs.co.uk> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <066F653E-C0F8-4026-9FE0-3A8899378D0C@poggs.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On 15 Apr 2011, at 14:14, harbor235 wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
Although more geared up for on-call, http://blog.hinterlands.org/2010/07/running-an-oncall-rota/ is a very useful resource.
Peter
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Message: 4 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:25:02 -0400 From: Charles Mills <w3yni1@gmail.com> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>, NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTint8hnfenSQZBHoS3x4hAS_P78JNA@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
I've had it done in places where I work where you'll have 3 rotations working 12 hour shifts.
In a 2 week pay period they get their 80 hours in a blend 36 one week and 44 the next. It gives some nice consecutive days off time which also doubles as a retention tool for some employees. You might have to get creative to have all the days work out but it can be done.
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:14 AM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
-- ===================================== Charles L. Mills Email: w3yni1@gmail.com ===================================== Need server hosting, DR or colocation services?? See me!
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Message: 5 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:37:54 -0400 From: Greg Moore <mooregr@greenms.com> Subject: RE: 365x24x7 To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com>, NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <mailman.2806.1302882739.16627.nanog@nanog.org> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1"
When I did this years ago I found 5 was really a minimum so that I could cover weekends and then had extra coverage as needed during the week.
I did find it was good to swap out the graveyard shift every 6 months or so.
-----Original Message----- From: harbor235 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:14 AM To: NANOG list Subject: 365x24x7
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
------------------------------
Message: 6 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:48:42 -0400 From: Steve Clark <sclark@netwolves.com> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: Charles Mills <w3yni1@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <4DA84CBA.5030409@netwolves.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 04/15/2011 09:25 AM, Charles Mills wrote:
I've had it done in places where I work where you'll have 3 rotations working 12 hour shifts.
In a 2 week pay period they get their 80 hours in a blend 36 one week and 44 the next. It gives some nice consecutive days off time which also doubles as a retention tool for some employees. You might have to get creative to have all the days work out but it can be done.
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 9:14 AM, harbor235<harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
I worked once in a production plant. They had 4 crews a,b,c,d and worked 6 days on 2 off. It was rotating shifts. As an example crew A worked 6 days 8-4 was off 2 days then started the next shift on 4-midnight, then midnight to 8. So at any one day 3 of the 4 crews were working and the other crew was off.
-- Stephen Clark *NetWolves* Sr. Software Engineer III Phone: 813-579-3200 Fax: 813-882-0209 Email: steve.clark@netwolves.com http://www.netwolves.com
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Message: 7 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:52:11 -0400 From: Marshall Eubanks <tme@americafree.tv> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: Greg Moore <mooregr@greenms.com> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <CAC57439-9CCC-42E3-8CB4-FA4141D8F3DA@americafree.tv> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii
On Apr 15, 2011, at 9:37 AM, Greg Moore wrote:
When I did this years ago I found 5 was really a minimum so that I could cover weekends and then had extra coverage as needed during the week.
I did find it was good to swap out the graveyard shift every 6 months or so.
When I worked with NASA and the Navy on remote locations that needed full time staffing, the rule of thumb was 5 people and 4 shifts was the absolute minimum, and the people had to be motivated enough to pull 12 hour shifts on a regular basis (i.e., this was very bare bones). The 4th shift was needed during the weekends.
Anything less, and you would have uncovered periods if, say, 2 people got sick simultaneously.
Regards Marshall
-----Original Message----- From: harbor235 Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:14 AM To: NANOG list Subject: 365x24x7
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
------------------------------
Message: 8 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:27:32 +0100 From: Alex Brooks <askoorb+nanog@gmail.com> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTikkVH_yk=97oWgq_A0YLxZ9dxNVXg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:14 PM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
Well, if you feel like being "nice" to your employees, or want to stop them from making mistakes a few months/years in to shift work, (or if you're having to set something up abroad), the Working Time Directive can be a useful guideline.
(Full details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive and http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1073858926 if you're board, ignore the silly bits)
But basically, in general, workers aged 18 and over are entitled to:
- work no more than six days out of every seven, or 12 out of every 14 - take a 20-minute break if their shift lasts for more than six hours - work a maximum 48-hour average week
And in general, night workers:
- should not work more than an average of eight hours in a 24-hour period, averaged over a reference period of 17 weeks
If you're an employer, be glad you're in North America :-)
HTH,
Alex
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Message: 9 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 09:31:48 -0500 From: "Sanders, Randall K" <Randall.K.Sanders@xo.com> Subject: RE: 365x24x7 To: nanog <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <B0E45381691B4E4188ECEE2507142CFC5C7B3660@txplanexch01.corp.inthosts.net>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Have you taken into account number of alarms per hour, inbound call volume for repairs, and how much repair is done at the first tier level? Bare minimum staffing in a busy environment?
Randy Sanders
-----Original Message----- From: Alex Brooks [mailto:askoorb+nanog@gmail.com] Sent: Friday, April 15, 2011 9:28 AM To: nanog Subject: Re: 365x24x7
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 2:14 PM, harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
Well, if you feel like being "nice" to your employees, or want to stop them from making mistakes a few months/years in to shift work, (or if you're having to set something up abroad), the Working Time Directive can be a useful guideline.
(Full details at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Working_Time_Directive and http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/layer?topicId=1073858926 if you're board, ignore the silly bits)
But basically, in general, workers aged 18 and over are entitled to:
- work no more than six days out of every seven, or 12 out of every 14 - take a 20-minute break if their shift lasts for more than six hours - work a maximum 48-hour average week
And in general, night workers:
- should not work more than an average of eight hours in a 24-hour period, averaged over a reference period of 17 weeks
If you're an employer, be glad you're in North America :-)
HTH,
Alex
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Message: 10 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 15:36:35 +0100 From: Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> Cc: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <alpine.LSU.2.00.1104151530010.19442@hermes-2.csi.cam.ac.uk> Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII
harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations?
Hours in the working year = 8 * 5 * 48 = 1920 Hours in the calendar year = 24 * 7 * 52 = 8736 Ratio = 4.55
Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Rockall, Malin, Hebrides: South 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 at first in Rockall and Malin, veering west or northwest 4 or 5, then backing southwest 5 or 6 later. Rough or very rough. Occasional rain. Moderate or good, occasionally poor.
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Message: 11 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 10:52:02 -0400 From: harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: NANOG list <nanog@nanog.org> Message-ID: <BANLkTinLSBedu3hq8hg4ihjEMcOHHbRjGg@mail.gmail.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1
Guys,
Thanx alot, there is some great stuff here, also some stuff I had not thought of.
thanx again,
Mike
On Fri, Apr 15, 2011 at 10:36 AM, Tony Finch <dot@dotat.at> wrote:
harbor235 <harbor235@gmail.com> wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations?
Hours in the working year = 8 * 5 * 48 = 1920 Hours in the calendar year = 24 * 7 * 52 = 8736 Ratio = 4.55
Tony. -- f.anthony.n.finch <dot@dotat.at> http://dotat.at/ Rockall, Malin, Hebrides: South 5 to 7, occasionally gale 8 at first in Rockall and Malin, veering west or northwest 4 or 5, then backing southwest 5 or 6 later. Rough or very rough. Occasional rain. Moderate or good, occasionally poor.
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Message: 12 Date: Fri, 15 Apr 2011 05:52:13 -1000 From: Paul Graydon <paul@paulgraydon.co.uk> Subject: Re: 365x24x7 To: nanog@nanog.org Message-ID: <4DA869AD.9070202@paulgraydon.co.uk> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1; format=flowed
On 4/15/2011 3:14 AM, harbor235 wrote:
If I were going to provide a 365x24x7 NOC, how many teams of personnel do I need to fully cover operations? I assume minimally you need 3 teams to cover the required 24 hr coverage, but there is off time and schedule rotation?
thoughts, experience?
Mike
For what it's worth, was part of a datacenter operations department that had a 24x7 team. 4 shifts, 4 staff on each shift (1 was supervisor who did same work as the rest, 1 'point of contact' who stayed in the office). 4 days on, 4 days off, 12 hour shifts, 8-8. Shift teams would alternate between day and night (so 4 day, 4 off, 4 night, 4 off, repeat ad infinitum). During the day that was bolstered by 6 day-staff, Monday to Friday, who would have a staggered start through the day (IIRC 2 start at 8, 2 at 9, 2 at 11)
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