Hi, NANOGers. ] Folks, its not underground any more. The criminals are using trojans ] to steal real money from real people now. Indeed, and for a while (circa five months by my observation) now. It is no longer, and hasn't been for a while, about technology. The technology - the Internet and the connected devices - has become a conduit for profitable criminal activity on an ubiquitous scale, pure and simple. Miscreants don't break into databases and steal 8M credit cards at a pop so they can card shells and shoes. ] Firewalls can't stop it, ISPs can't stop it. Its a *HOST* security issue. I'll slightly modify that statement; it is a *PEOPLE* issue. People who write code. People who use systems and networks. People who abuse all of the above for monetary gain. Thanks, Rob. -- Rob Thomas http://www.cymru.com ASSERT(coffee != empty);