On 7/10/2011 12:16 PM, Jeroen Massar wrote:
+1
The lack of will on the part of the IETF to attract input from and involve operators in their processes (which I would posit is a critical element in the process). Ehmmmm ANYBODY, including you, can sign up to the IETF mailing lists and
On 2011-07-10 17:56 , David Miller wrote: [..] participate there, just like a couple of folks from NANOG are already doing.
You are on NANOG out of your own free will, the same applies to the IETF. If you don't participate here your voice is not heard either, just like at the IETF.
True, anyone can participate in the IETF processes. However, if key players do not participate, then something is broken. I will take my lumps for not participating. My point was - "If fingers can be pointed at both sides, i.e. operators and IETF, then both sides are to blame." In the corporate world, if I were contemplating changing the framework of a system, then I would need to get buy in / agreement from the stakeholders of that system. If I was going to change the framework behind an HR system, then the HR managers and HR systems experts would all have to agree to the change. If I changed the framework and broke all of the HR systems and then told my boss that I scheduled a meeting and nobody from HR showed up and therefore I used that as agreement in their absence, then I would get fired. Yes, I understand that corporate environments are very different from the IETF environment, but there are perhaps some lessons to learn from the corporate environment. Most RFCs operate within a meritocracy. A standard can be proposed for "Example Protocol v10" and if nobody likes it outside of the IETF, then it is not implemented by anyone and it eventually dies on the vine. IPv6 is "different" in that it is the underpinning of every other protocol/standard that will exist on or operate over the internet for the next 20-30 years (probably) We had 10+ years of IPv6 not being implemented by anyone (seriously), yet it didn't die on the vine. Perhaps the process for "Example Protocol v10" and the process for IPv6 should be different - given the fundamental difference in their scope. No, we can't change the past. "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." - Santayana. I would say that many variables that got us to where we are today - which is out of IPv4 addresses and faced with only IPv6, which many believe is fundamentally flawed, as our only way forward - holds some lessons to be learned... but perhaps this is just me - and if so, I apologize for the noise.
Peeking at the ipv6@ietf.org member list, I don't see your name there. You can signup here: https://www.ietf.org/mailman/listinfo/ipv6
Absolutely true, fixed.
Greets, Jeroen
-DMM