i don't know about most nocs. but the few to which i have been close have had three or four levels of folk, from competent techs to darned good ip engineers. i know folk in the verio, ntt, iij, ... nocs that i would rather have backing me up than some of my fellow prima donna global internet pooh bah c* j* blah blahs on this list. of course, i have also dealt with nocs where the folk took no ownership, were poorly clued, ... i suspect the hr department in question would like to make one of these. while it may lose customers, it'll sure make the expense side of the income statement look good. and hr departments are not responsible for the income side of the equation. just as IT departments are not given any incentive to maximize productivity, just to reduce expense for IT. i just want to say a deep thanks to the noccers who have bailed my butt out so many times over the years. may you be shielded as much as possible from the too narrowly incented hr and it departments, and from prima donna engineers such as i. randy