-----Original Message----- From: owner-nanog@merit.edu [mailto:owner-nanog@merit.edu]On Behalf Of Robert Sharp Sent: May 23, 2001 2:36 PM To: Valdis.Kletnieks@vt.edu Cc: nanog@merit.edu Subject: Re: Stealth Blocking
OK Let me start again. Lets go over some assumptions I made the first time that obviously need to be restated.
Like a large majority of all assumptions, they are based on little but your own personal opinion of this issue...
1) MAPS is a single self appoint law enforcement agency on the INTERNET. Don't argue until you hear me out.
Fine, since I'm a nice guy and want to give you a chance, I'll leave my replies to further down below.
a) MAPS creates the LAW, ie. no open relay
No. MAPS provides a listing of people with open relays (or dialup IPs, or whatever, depending on what MAPS list you use). A phone book provides a listing of restaurants providing Italian food; how is that different?
b) MAPS enforces the law and if you don't let them scan your machine you are automatically assumed guilty. Last I checked you needed a warrent and some proof to do that, one easily forgable email header is not proof, in any universe.
So, as someone else pointed out, you mind MAPS scanning your machine, but you don't mind spammers relaying through it? I'm afraid that your value system's logic is not apparent to me; perhaps you'll care to enlighten us?
c)MAPS sentences you. You are placed on this LIST rather or not you are actually generating spam. This is a case of the ends justifiys the means.
MAPS sentences you to WHAT????? MAPS is a LISTING. It just so coincidentally happens that several thousands (or hundreds of thousands) of your fellow network/system administrators don't want mail from open relays. So, MAPS makes a list of open relays and says to those people "here folks, we'll give you a list of those open relays you don't WANT, so you don't need to go and find them and block them yourself, which will take you forever". A large amount of these people agree that MAPS' offering is useful to them. The people sentencing you, to use your analogy, are the network administrators using MAPS (or ORBS, or vi /etc/mail/access, or whatever) to block you. Your crime? You run an open relay. If these people don't want open relays talking to their mail servers, then I don't see who the hell you are to tell them that they HAVE to accept mail from you. They don't. Each network admins' servers are his/her own, and if he/she doesn't want his/her servers to talk to yours, then too bad for you. I might add that whether your open relay is abused or not isn't the question; an open relay is almost like a loaded weapon being pointed at someone else's servers. It will be abused someday, and being proactive means blocking it _before_ the next wannabe spam king sends a few dozen gigs of spam through you. If you get blocked _after_ the gigs of spam have been sent, then there's still a lot of damage to be cleaned up.
on deaf MAP'S ears. I don't like the IDEA of one person controlling the show. I would
What show? MAPS provides a listing. Obviously, whoever USES MAPS' listing trusts MAPS' judgment, just like whoever buys a $WHATEVER based on $INDUSTRY_PUBLICATION's opinion of it obviously trusts $INDUSTRY_PUBLICATION. MAPS isn't FORCING anyone to use the RBL/DUL/RSS/etc, last time I checked. (If that's their new policy, then I guess I'm in trouble).
And if you use the MAPS list by your choice you are most definetly filtering out email or traffic for people who are legitimate. I know I have been filtered before. MAPS is using a very large hammer to kill a not so large bug.
Do you have any evidence to support your claim that spam sent through open relays are a "not so large bug"?
In conclusion. I HATE spam like everyone else. I am just opposed to the solution that seems to keep gaining acceptance. And I have been asked by many other people on and off list to spot expressing my obviously un informed views. We let me say that asking, rather demanding, I stop questioning this is dead wrong and if people didn't question ideas we would still thing the earth was flat and we were the center of the universe.
Well, OK, so you don't like the method MAPS has chosen, but now claim to hate spam. At least _they_ are doing something to fight the problem; if you don't agree with their method, then why don't you implement your own? I'm sure lots of people would love a better solution than MAPS, because, as you pointed out (and I agree with you that MAPS can lead to legitimate mail being blocked due to the cluelessness or wilful blindness of various admins), MAPS' way isn't perfect. But, for now, there isn't much else out there... Vivien -- Vivien M. vivienm@dyndns.org Assistant System Administrator Dynamic DNS Network Services http://www.dyndns.org/