] I think faster routers and bigger pipes will will not solve this problem. As a ] friend likes to say, that is necessary but not sufficient. HWB is right when ] he says that the network design is not coping. He left out tools, operations and customer support. I think there is some percentage of the service providers ] out there who don't care about the service they provide, but I believe (hope) ] that the mejority really do care. This whole mess reminds me of some projects I drove by in DC. Perhaps that is what our current Internet is: Low rent housing w/ mass density and all the problem associated therein. A wise man has a vision of the Internet much more hierarchaly laid out. While I have reservations about the Monopoly of certain companies controlling the top layers of the Internet, I think it might be the only way to keep these cesspools of intelligence from corrupting the NAPs and corrupting my connection to anyone single homed through MAE-East. The update I just got on the MAE-E /"Sprint" problem seems rather timely to the discussion. " We have hit the point where BGP processing on SprintLink routers can no longer survive moderate fall-overs. There is no fix for this, except: a/ people MUST withdraw as many prefixes as possible b/ the background route-flap MUST be reduced This is a global problem, and is not, and will not be confined to SprintLink. In short, as has been said on countless mailing-lists for more than a year: CIDRize or die. " says sean. -alan