Rob Wrote: If C brand worked properly as shipped how would Cisco support services and other consultancys survive? It's a MUCH bigger market in consulting services and Rent-a-Expert than the initial hardware/firmware sales. If Cisco shipped mostly working product then thousands of high paying jobs would be lost and probably a billion or more support dollars would never make the rounds in the economy. Microsoft and Cisco do the tech industry a HUGE favor by shipping misfunctional equipment/software to which consulting services and professional services can then step in and hawk their wares/bodys/solutions. If Cisco and Microsoft shipped properly working product the tech industry/economy would probably disintegrate! Once you understand the above, the technical industry starts to make a little more sense; its consulting and professional support services that drive the economy and not properly functioning gear! -Rob Indulge me in an analogy: Let's say I own a bakery. Some punk throws a rock through my window. Well, now I have to either pay someone to fix the window, leave it the way it is or try to repair it myself. Since I don't know anything about windows, and I really can't just leave it, I have to pay someone to fix it. According to Rob's school of thought, the economy has been given a boost (albeit a very minor one) because I have temporarily employed a window repair man. Sounds logical at first. Look at the slippery slope: Wouldn't it be great for the economy if everyone went around breaking windows? Of course not, because people have better things to be spending their money on than window repair. There is no return on investment for fixing a window. The point is, if so much money is being spent on support costs, it's actually a DRAIN on the economy because the money being spent on support would likely be more productive and spent more wisely by the companies that are now wasting money because of inferior hardware/software. That productivity could result in lower consumer prices which means you'd keep more of your own money. It means more money could be invested into new products and services which would in turn create more jobs and more than make up for the support jobs that would be lost by hardware/software that needed very little support. If those of us that provide support for a living weren't doing that would we be just sitting at home? Probably not. If we were not supporting, we would likely be innovating or in a different industry that was more productive because they weren't paying so stinking much to support their hardware/software. Rob says that Microsoft and Cisco are doing the tech industry a favor but they are not; they are only doing themselves a favor. This applies especially to Microsoft because people wait breathlessly for the next patch or upgrade and then act as if M$ is doing them a favor by fixing something that shouldn't have been broken to begin with. Larry Diffey - Armchair Economist