the other day, having some questions about orbs and similar issues, i asked some net.friends where there was a rational mailing list discussing such. they laughed at me and said that rational discussion of anti-spam seemed socially impossible. thanks all for providing an empirical evidence, albeit not formal proof. it seems to me that an orbs-like service listing an entire netblock because an upstream is blocking orbs testing is a difficult issue. in this particular case it means that, because of other obligations i have chosen to assume (e.g. ietf mailing lists), i probably should not use orbs in reject mode. but i am foolish enough to think that i understand both orbs's and abovenet's sides of the issue (i have discussed it with both, politely), and don't feel qualified to preach what's right and what's wrong. but i can choose whether to use orbs in reject mode or not. so can you, it's your prerogative. and if friends/correspondents of yours don't like you using it (or the inverse), then that's a discussion between you and them. orbs and abovenet are neither wrong nor right. it's not like some cardinal sin is occurring. they are just services. you can choose to use them. you can choose not to. it is your choice. and if you use one but don't like its policy (or the lunch they serve, or whatever), then take that up with the provider of the service. randy