On 10/22/14, 9:01 AM, "Jeffrey Ollie" <jeff@ocjtech.us> wrote:
Bull. If you've been around the FOSS community even for a short while, you'd know that systemd has become a religious topic akin to
On 10/22/14, 10:41 AM, "Jeffrey Ollie" <jeff@ocjtech.us> wrote:
sums up my thoughts on the "unix philosophy". It's not the be-all-end-all that you make it out to be. Again, this sounds a lot like "Grumpy Old Man" complaining.
You appear to be the only one here having difficulties being civil on the topic. The rest of us are having an interesting, pleasant discussion about a rather huge operational shift. You like systemd. Great. More power to you. You apparently don’t like it that many others have differing views or are still reserving judgment. Also great, you can ignore the thread. That said, my take on the mess. I need to see systemd running for while in large-scale production before I’m moving anything to it. I do rather hate the NIH-itis, the svchost.exe-ish nature of the technical approach, the core devs' attitudes, the tightly-coupled nature of the approach to doing the various things it wants to do, and the devs' stated goal of forcing every linux distro in to using it. And fu’ing binary logs. OTOH, it does offer some nice things that can become annoying with other tools. The single-sourced APIs for userspace apps might be appreciated by some developers, especially refugees from MSFT-land. It is immature compared to the competition with a radically un-unix approach developed by people with a track record of being extremely difficult to collaborate with, and it does several specific things I really don’t like. That adds up to a hard sell for me. Some may see me as a "grumpy old man" for that. I see it as a technical conservatism for my production environments borne of having been burned by shiny-cool-new before one too many times, and a tired dislike of being paged out of bed over some chrome plated new hotness that crapped itself again. There is a deeper argument about "the unix way" here as well. I do see a lot of people become frustrated by what they see as impedance mismatched between tools as they learn ("why should I have to care about what the IFS is?"), or because a tool fails to react in accordance with their expectations, or because they are using the wrong tool ("I want to match these HTML tags with a regex..."), or because they realize a problem they thought should be easy, isn't. I think that’s natural, to some extent. I did (and still do, sometimes - there seems to be a hard limit on the number of awk implementation differences that fit in my brain, for instance). And there are things that could be made a lot better. But when I start wondering if my init system has a flight simulator easter egg, well, there’s a problem, at least for me. It is funny to see people use "but that approach is 40 years old!" on both sides of the argument. I do love playing with new toys, and think the systemd folks should write whatever they want. I have major issues with the monoculture they want to establish. (And yes, a core developer clearly stated that as a goal[1].) Most of my systems are Linux these days, and I am mostly distro-agnostic, although my default does happen to be Debian. I do think I’m going to have to get back up to speed on FreeBSD again. -j [1] https://lists.fedoraproject.org/pipermail/devel/2011-June/152672.html : "[...]we want to gently push the distros to standardize on the same components for the base system[...]"