On 07/10/2011 12:45, Owen DeLong wrote:
On Jul 10, 2011, at 9:16 AM, Jeroen Massar wrote:
On 2011-07-10 17:56 , David Miller wrote: [..]
+1
The lack of will on the part of the IETF to attract input from and involve operators in their processes (which I would posit is a critical element in the process).
Discussing how the IETF should fix itself is both fruitless, and off topic for this list. However ...
While this is true, there are a couple of factors that make it more difficult than it would appear on the surface.
Number one: Participating effectively in IETF is a rather time-consuming process. While a lot of engineers and developers may have IETF effort as a primary part of their job function and/or get their employer to let them spend time on it, operators are often too busy keeping what they already have running and it can be _VERY_ difficult to get management to support the idea of investing time in things like IETF which are not seen by management as having direct operational impact. NANOG is about the limit of their vision on such things and even that is not well supported in a lot of organizations.
Number two: While anyone can participate, approaching IETF as an operator requires a rather thick skin, or, at least it did the last couple of times I attempted to participate. I've watched a few times where operators were shouted down by purists and religion over basic real-world operational concerns. It seems to be a relatively routine practice and does not lead to operators wanting to come back to an environment where they feel unwelcome.
What you're saying is absolutely right (unfortunately), but the answer is that operators need to suck it up and get involved. The problem will not fix itself if we don't. The good news is that in many areas (at least, the areas that I participate in) there is starting to be a lot more sympathy toward operational concerns/realities, and real progress is being made. Yes, it's slow, arduous, and often frustrating. (How's that for a sales pitch?) But there is literally no other solution to improving the situation that for the people that care to get involved in helping to fix it. For those interested in IPv6 I highly recommend subscribing to the the 6man and v6ops lists, listen in on the conversations for a while, and then chime in when you feel comfortable. Treat those on the list with the same courtesy and respect that you'd like to be treated with, and way more often than not it will bear fruit. hth, Doug -- Nothin' ever doesn't change, but nothin' changes much. -- OK Go Breadth of IT experience, and depth of knowledge in the DNS. Yours for the right price. :) http://SupersetSolutions.com/