On Mon, Nov 17, 1997 at 03:23:43PM -0800, Vadim Antonov wrote:
Karl Denninger wrote:
HOWEVER, the "alt.binaries.warez" groups, and more particularly, the groups used *primarily* to distribute kiddie porn are another matter. Nobody with half a neuron firing in their head is going to be able to make an argument in a courtroom that the group "alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc.windows" isn't a group designed and operated for the purpose of distributing stolen software.
Or try "alt.binaries.pictures.teen-fuck". Tell me THAT's not obvious on its face.
That was beaten to death many years ago. Nobody with a half neuron will argue for filtering or removal of those newsgroups on a large scale (now, i contend that a teeny weeny ISP can get away with it, but for large ISPs it just doesn't work). The reason is very simple: the objectionable content will simply move to "legitimate" newsgroups. There is no way to prevent it. Which would make it much harder for those who don't want to see it to filter it out. How about _encouraging_ such self-regulation instead?
Now, can we get out of the kiddie porn sandbox?
--vadim
There is no way to prevent bank robbery. Therefore, since we cannot prevent it, it should be perfectly legal for me to sell you a firearm with the full knowledge that you intend to use it for the purpose of robbing a bank, or that you have previously robbed a bank (and been convicted of same) and are therefore inclined to do so again. The problem with your argument, Vadim, is that it doesn't wash under the legal code of the United States. It also doesn't wash under the ethical codes of a whole bunch of people, including me. You can argue that it is impossible to prevent kiddie porn. You might even be right about that. But arguing whether you are right or wrong about whether we can prevent kiddie porn from being produced, and children from being exploited by any measure short of 24x7 camera monitoring of every individual in the country is immaterial to THIS issue. The issue here is simple - what is the *right thing* to do? Whether you can save the world by doing the right thing isn't the point, nor should it be. I can't save the planet by myself, and perhaps none of us can save the planet. But that does not mean that I should toss my can out the car window, simply because others have before me and individually, my can is immaterial to the problem of roadside waste. It is, quite simply, WRONG for people to exploit children. Its wrong to knowingly give people a medium by which they can easily congregate to do this. Yes, I know darn well that I can't stop every person who uses our IRC server, for example, from sending out kiddie porn through it. I *KNOW* this, because to do anything else requires that I have the ability to filter through every piece of content that touches that IP number and port, looking for the evil material. Its just not possible. But if someone comes to me and tells me of a set of people who are using our system for this purpose, I *ALSO* can't stick my head in the sand in relation to the issue. Anyone who thinks that these binary groups are just spam-hauses for 1-900-GET-LAID is incredibly naive. Those ads don't require 40% of the feed. The *reality* is that trading of stolen and illegal material is rampant in these *particular* groups. Its a simple matter of volume; that is ALL you have to look at in order to figure it out. We STILL count the number of postings we are asked to file in these groups. Here's the listing from the last TWO HOURS off the top of those logs: 228 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica 193 newsgroup alt.binaries.warez.ibm-pc 189 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.oral 175 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.cartoons 151 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.orientals 150 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.breasts 148 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.amateur 146 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.boys 134 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.amateur.female 132 newsgroup alt.binaries.erotica 129 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.female 116 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.panties 115 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.blondes 112 newsgroup alt.binaries.games 108 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.redheads 108 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.female.anal 108 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.bisexuals 107 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstar 105 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.erotica.pornstars 105 newsgroup alt.binaries.pictures.black.erotic.females 104 newsgroup alt.test.testing 103 newsgroup alt.sex.pictures 102 newsgroup alt.sex.erotica Any questions? This is getting off-topic for NANOG - I've said my last on the issue here. -- -- Karl Denninger (karl@MCS.Net)| MCSNet - Serving Chicagoland and Wisconsin http://www.mcs.net/~karl | T1's from $600 monthly to FULL DS-3 Service | NEW! K56Flex modem support is now available Voice: [+1 312 803-MCS1 x219]| 56kbps DIGITAL ISDN DOV on analog lines! Fax: [+1 312 803-4929] | 2 FULL DS-3 Internet links; 400Mbps B/W Internal