I have avoided getting into this debate, but this has really gone too far. Bob Allisat's contention is that any ISP that attempts to filter content is violating "inalienable rights and freedoms" is way off the mark. Ok, Mr. Allisat, I'll bite -- explain to me what "right" is being violated when I stop a spammer that is trying to advertise "Hot Pussy Sites" to eleven year old children? Or how about get rich quick schemes that forge their addresses to hide their identities so you can not trace them after they rip you off? Or chain letters that clog mail spools while susceptible people worry about their outcomes if they don't comply with the letter? You scream "inalienable rights and freedoms", but your motive is to promote and encourage those that would prey on the most susceptable of our society. Freedom that robs our children of their innocence, promotes con artists, and feeds on the vulnerable is not freedom, Mr. Allisat! But I think you have another axe to grind as well. Your letter to Karl Denninger contains the following exerpts: * "Whatever rights, freedoms and liberties we have are eliminated in favour of Kangaroo courts like Vixie's network or RBL finks, Customer Services flunkies and over-bearing capitalists ..." * "They hide behind arguments that their systems are private property and their alleged "property rights" are more important than our inalienable rights and freedoms." * "Our rights to security over our data and communications, to privacy and access to commercial and personal e-mail, etc are all *SUPERIOR* to any tertiary rights these business organizations may claim." * "We have universal, inalienable rights and freedoms. These precious things extend to private property and internationally." Based on these statements, I can only conlude you have a huge problem with the capitalistic system, and that you favor the elimination of private property in order to foster your "freedom". That is the same argument Fidel Casto uses on the people he suppresses, and was the common theme among communist countries before the fall of the Berlin wall. Joseph Stalin shared your views on private property. I don't. As a capitalist, I find your ideas offensive and misguided. Wake up Mr. Allisat -- you already have a feee system. One that can choose whether to filter spam or not. One that can choose whether to give his private property away or not. Your concept of "inalienable rights and freedoms" is one that would force all ISPs to do things YOUR way, instead of the current free choice system we currently have. And one other point -- calling the people that help customers configure their systems to connect to the Internet "Customer Services flunkies" is insensitive and unfair. I know the employees that work for my company go out of their way to make sure every customer is helped and treated with respect, regardless of the customers experience with computers or the Internet. That is one of the advantages of paying for Internet service -- you get real customer service from people who actually care whether or not your experience is a positive one. That is capitalism. Paul Vixie and his team of "RBL finks" are to be commended on the excellent job they have done in stopping the poisonous assult of pornographic filth, fraud, and manipulation that spam brings to people everyday. And for people that want to take the RBL even further, we provide a list via autoresponder at spamlist@us.net that blocks even more of this crud. And here is the best part -- its up to the FREEDOM of the individuals that use these resources to determine if and how they want to use them. There are no "inalienable rights and freedoms" that give spammers unrestricted access to the Internet. Even the courts have upheld the right of ISPs to block and filter spam -- see the URL http://www.aclu.org/issues/cyber/updates/nov13clu.html#cyberpromo If you want to use your time and resources to foster and promote the activites of people that prey upon society at large, go right ahead -- that's "freedom", and it is your "right" to do so. I have always found it interesting that the people the scream the loudest about their rights do it in the context of denying others their rights. As an ISP, I have the right to choose. And I choose not to do business with spammers. Dave Stoddard US Net Incorporated 301-361-6000 dgs@us.net Bob Allisat writes:
Karl Denninger writes:
That looks an awful lot like an industry-wide blacklist, and those are dangerously close to being per-se illegal.
There's nothing wrong with a single provider putting whatever provisions in their agreements they see fit - you're always free to shop for a new provider. However, when industry actions conspire to basically *force* certain provisions to be included in *everyone's* contracts, and those provisions go beyond "don't do illegal things", then IMHO you're exerting force that needs to be very carefully thought out.
When every Service Provider writes a carte blanche paragraph into their alleged Acceptable Use Policies allowing such practices as "Black Holing", content deletion, account termination etc. we become hostages to commercial entities. Whatever rights, freedoms and liberties we have are eliminated in favour of Kangaroo courts like Vixie's network or RBL finks, Customer Services flunkies and over-bearing capitalists like Mr. Denniger here. They hide behind arguments that their systems are private property and their alleged "property rights" are more important than our inalienable rights and freedoms.
It is not our right merely to choose among companies and corporate entities. Our rights to security over our data and communications, to privacy and access to commercial and personal e-mail, etc are all *SUPERIOR* to any tertiary rights these business organizations may claim. While Denniger shrieks in uncharachteristic defense of our liberties he is the first one to claim dominion over every machine and anything anyone does using those machines, telling them to basically get lost if they don't like it.
We have universal, inalienable rights and freedoms. These precious things extend to private property and internationally. If we do not fight to protect these inalienables we will suffer the rough consequences. Please visit <http://fcn.net> for more information.
Respectfully,
Bob Allisat
Free Community Network _ bob@fcn.net . http://fcn.net http://fcn.net/allisat _ http://fcn.net/draft