Didn’t the Dec 2018 CL outage cause waves and even TDM circuits to go down? Luke From: NANOG <nanog-bounces+lguillory=reservetele.com@nanog.org> On Behalf Of Matt Erculiani Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:59 PM To: Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com> Cc: nanog list <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 *External Email: Use Caution* For providers who use the same infrastructure for their IP backbone and Ethernet services (as so many do), a large DDoS could disrupt all Ethernet services that normally traverse affected links, whereas Waves would be blissfully ignorant of such an event. Waves are pretty reliable and will only go down as a result of a configuration error, vendor software issue, or physical/layer 1 failure, all of which can also affect Ethernet services. This is especially important if you select a provider that sees excess capacity as a wasted operational expense instead of an investment in reliability. Worth noting that protected Waves do have a "reconvergence" time like Ethernet would, but this is typically measured in nanoseconds for shorter distances. Your equipment can probably be configured to not link-down during this gap, you'll just see some errors or a few dropped packets (subject to your provider's specific implementation). -Matt On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:41 PM Darin Steffl <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>> wrote: Yes but they're $$$ to have protection. Generally ethernet will be cheaper than waves with the added protection. I'm not arguing for one or the other. Waves will often be cheaper when looking at 10G or 100G compared to ethernet. For 1G or less, ethernet might be cheaper with some protection already built-in. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 3:31 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: *nods* There are protected wave services generally available if you wish to protect about such things. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Darin Steffl" <darin.steffl@mnwifi.com<mailto:darin.steffl@mnwifi.com>> To: "Mike Hammett" <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Cc: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com<mailto:eric.kuhnke@gmail.com>>, "nanog list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 3:08:19 PM Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 The downside to waves are that they're typically not protected. So a cut will take you down. If you have 10G Layer 2 ethernet, they often will have redundant paths so the only single path that can fail is between you and their first POP where they hopefully have redundancy. It can make a big difference when you're transporting data hundreds or thousands of miles. The longer the path, the less reliable the wave will be as each route mile opens you up to more risk. On Wed, Oct 14, 2020 at 2:25 PM Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> wrote: I suppose it depends on your carrier and their capabilities. I much prefer waves to any kind of service that you can aggregate. Being able to aggregate just means they're going to oversubscribe you and at some point, you'll not get what you're paying for. Can't do that on a wave. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/googleicon.png]<https://plus.google.com/+IntelligentComputingSolutionsDeKalb>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/intelligent-computing-solutions>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/ICSIL> Midwest Internet Exchange<http://www.midwest-ix.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/mdwestix>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/linkedinicon.png]<https://www.linkedin.com/company/midwest-internet-exchange>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/twittericon.png]<https://twitter.com/mdwestix> The Brothers WISP<http://www.thebrotherswisp.com/> [http://www.ics-il.com/images/fbicon.png]<https://www.facebook.com/thebrotherswisp>[http://www.ics-il.com/images/youtubeicon.png]<https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCXSdfxQv7SpoRQYNyLwntZg> ________________________________ From: "Eric Kuhnke" <eric.kuhnke@gmail.com<mailto:eric.kuhnke@gmail.com>> To: "Forrest Christian (List Account)" <lists@packetflux.com<mailto:lists@packetflux.com>> Cc: "nanog list" <nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> Sent: Wednesday, October 14, 2020 2:25:46 AM Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 For small ISPs looking at setting up their first ever presence at an IX point, you almost certainly would not be ordering an actual 'wave' (eg: a specific DWDM channel on a legacy 10G DWDM platform, handed off to you with 1310/LX interfaces at both ends), but lit layer 2 transport service between the carrier hotel and your service location. Pricing for the two types of service can be quite different when you request an actual 'wave' from a carrier sales person, vs just lit L2 transport capable of large MTUs, QinQ, etc. The ISP carrying it might take it between those two places as simply a vlan trunked through a larger 100G link, as a MPLS circuit, lots of possible things. Unless you happened to be in a happy conjunction of the right place at the right time, and an older DWDM system on exactly the same path you wanted happened to have an empty channel and ready to go interface cards at both ends. On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 11:12 PM Forrest Christian (List Account) <lists@packetflux.com<mailto:lists@packetflux.com>> wrote: Generally one would order a circuit (aka wave) between your location and the IX fabric at the interchange if you're not at the site you're wanting to peer at. For instance, the network I am the network engineer for has a circuit which terminates into the Seattle IX (SIX) fabric. We don't have any other presence in Seattle (or Washington for that matter) at this point - our circuit connects directly to our port on the Exchange. We're considering adding a similar link to another exchange point somewhere to the east or southeast of us. I haven't looked at the graphs recently, but it's not uncommon for >50% of our traffic to come from the exchange. And yes, we're peered with Hurricane and others there. We're also looking at dropping 1U or so of equipment in so we can pick up some transit as well, but that's a story for a different day about the joys of providing internet in the less populated parts of the country. In your case, it also looks like there are also some peering options at the datacenters you are currently at as well. You may want to do some more research to determine how that might work in your situation. PeeringDB is a good resource along with google searches for "peering 100 Taylor" or "peering austin data foundry" On Tue, Oct 13, 2020 at 9:51 PM <aaron1@gvtc.com<mailto:aaron1@gvtc.com>> wrote: Don’t you have to be there to join? I’m in Austin and San Antonio -Aaron From: Mike Hammett <nanog@ics-il.net<mailto:nanog@ics-il.net>> Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 7:20 PM To: Aaron Gould <aaron1@gvtc.com<mailto:aaron1@gvtc.com>> Cc: nanog@nanog.org<mailto:nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: Hurricane Electric AS6939 https://bgp.he.net/AS16527 You don't appear to be on any IXes. Definitely join some IXes before buying another 100G of transit. DFW has a couple and there are some more that are starting up. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions<http://www.ics-il.com/> Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> ________________________________ From: "Aaron Gould" <aaron1@gvtc.com> To: nanog@nanog.org Sent: Tuesday, October 13, 2020 6:29:55 PM Subject: Hurricane Electric AS6939 Do y’all like HE for Internet uplink? I’m thinking about using them for 100gig in Texas. It would be for my eyeballs ISP. We currently have Spectrum, Telia and Cogent. -Aaron -- - Forrest <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> -- <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Darin Steffl <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Minnesota WiFi<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> www.mnwifi.com<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> 507-634-WiFi<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Like us on Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> -- <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Darin Steffl <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Minnesota WiFi<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> www.mnwifi.com<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> 507-634-WiFi<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Like us on Facebook<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> -- <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> Matt Erculiani <https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL> ERCUL-ARIN<https://www.facebook.com/ICSIL>