I'm sure some will react to this viscerally but I'd argue that a large chunk of the spam issue is an operational issue due to factors like: 1. Volume, bandwidth 2. Spammers' address block hijacking and other misuse of resources 3. Revenge (typically DDoS) attacks by spammers 4. General operational, related to #1, but for example how spam stresses capex. No doubt some others. But when someone says to me spam isn't much of a problem because it's mostly blocked by local filtering (i.e., they don't see much spam in their inbox), usually in an attempt to shut down any discussion entirely, I know I'm hearing from someone who hasn't a clue what problems it causes operationally. That's not to argue for opening the floodgates on spam mitigation on nanog. Only that it's not necessarily off-topic depending on the aspect raised. -- -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die | bzs@TheWorld.com | http://www.TheWorld.com Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility | *oo*