CLM> Date: Tue, 7 May 2002 21:43:10 +0000 (GMT) CLM> From: Christopher L. Morrow CLM> 1) rate-limits aren't going to solve anything. If -- big if -- the sources could be throttled... but they'd have to be so slow that they were effectively shut off. Maybe it would be easier to give more power to TCP congestion control. Maybe similar functionality in ICMP. Maybe something in IP itself. Did somebody say "ECN"? Frankly, if ECN were "widely enough" deployed, one could assume ECN-ignoring devices to be rogue, and act upon that. Right now one does it at layer 9. A lower layer isn't out of the question. (See remarks re point #3.) CLM> 2) I'm pretty sure most providers aren't going to let CLM> customers determine traffic engineering methods on their CLM> networks BGP communities... 3356, 3561, 4006, 3549, and several smaller providers offer selective prepends... if there were more edge clue, I think that more would follow. Many more honor MEDs, and virtually all provide local-pref knobs... The big pain in something like this would be state. Hence why some sort of pushback sounds reasonable; determine the other endpoints, and communicate with edge devices. Keep state out of the core. *sits and prepares to listen to how big UU's edge is* "We can't do it because Vendor X doesn't offer it" is not the right answer. If it's feasible, the question is _why_ Vendor X doesn't offer capable hardware. (I'm leaving it at that, as this message already relates to several flame wars.) Yes, that would be a big chore for a 1x000-class router with tons if subinterfaces. But where do those subinterfaces originate? Might the true edge device be the... switch? Let's say that it takes $5000 of hardware to provide this service on a DS3. When I go shopping, will I be willing to pay five grand extra for a DS3 that has better DDoS control? (Hint: How much bandwidth will I lose otherwise?) Better yet, let's say I colo at a place that charges for traffic. Will I pay a bit extra for an outfit that has my best interests in mind? Perhaps I don't care how big the ice cream cone is if it doesn't have a nice flavor. The world's biggest ice cream cone just might not be enough of an offering, especially if the cow is having trouble producing milk. CLM> 3) if this is NOT done in a secure manner I bet I can make CLM> www.whitehouse.com disappear... :) If BGP is not done in a secure manner I bet I can make any site disappear. -- Eddy Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - EverQuick Internet Division Phone: +1 (316) 794-8922 Wichita/(Inter)national Phone: +1 (785) 865-5885 Lawrence ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Date: Mon, 21 May 2001 11:23:58 +0000 (GMT) From: A Trap <blacklist@brics.com> To: blacklist@brics.com Subject: Please ignore this portion of my mail signature. These last few lines are a trap for address-harvesting spambots. Do NOT send mail to <blacklist@brics.com>, or you are likely to be blocked.