I've been a lurker on the list for a good long while now, and recently I have become pretty active. I think a lot of the pro's post, and the problem isn't that the people are banished to newbie.dev.nul (I like that by the way.), but that the people that originally asked the question endlessly debate the advice that gets posted by people that really know what they're talking about. This causes a great deal of frustration, and it's how the endless loops in threads end up happening (I.e. the deagg thread, or the verio/istop arrogance thread.) I think this is when people start to get seriously hazed. I really believe that if people that post a question sit back and honestly listen to the answers, it will go back to being a true resource for people having network issues, or reporting problems on the net. That being said, you're 100% right. I posted this so maybe the newer posters will sit back and really think about the technical merits of what people have to say, rather than just argue it because they didn't really think hard enough on it. My three cents. Derek