Frustration with increasing information demands from Network Vendors
Hi, I have an handful of Juniper devices (mx204 / QFX5100). I recently bought a new QFX5110 switch I want to update to a newer software release. My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are "/$ Revenue Range/", "/# of Sales Reps/", "/# of Office Locations/". "/Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)/". I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with "/Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete/. " I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands. I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all this information. I'm I do only one that feels this strongly about this?
On Fri, 2024-10-11 at 11:25 +0200, chiel via NANOG wrote:
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. [...] I'm I the only one that feels this strongly about this?
Well, not the only one. Obviously enough people don't care; enough that the company can stay in business in spite of abusing their customers. But there is a simple solution. Lie! Lie strongly and continuously. If they don't check it, lie about it. Name, birthday, address, whatever. Make a new email address for each identity (this will also help you identify the companies that sell your details). If they require real street addresses, you would be *amazed* how many companies accept their own. Same thing with security questions - just make &^%$ up! My mother's maiden name is a 32-character random alphanumeric string, different for each requester. It's important to be different for each requester, or the fictional you becomes identifiable too... Do, however, record your lies in case you need to be consistent, such as with security questions. Yours very truly, Ms Farkovitz Nunyabizwacs, 1133 Innovation Way, Sunnyvale, California, 94089 USA.
On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 08:59:00PM +1100, Karl Auer wrote:
But there is a simple solution. Lie! Lie strongly and continuously.
I strongly endorse this, doubly so given that the companies insisting on pointlessly collecting all this private information are the same companies that are staffed by miserably incompetent CIOs/CTOs/CSOs and have no possible chance of keeping it secure. I've been doing this for decades, and it's been quite instructive to note which companies have leaked which information, often without publicly acknowledging a security breach/dataloss incident. (Of course it's possible they have no idea that such an incident has occurred or that someone inside is doing a little freelancing using customer data.) And regardless of which company is involved, *under no circumstances* should anyone ever provide a truthful answer to security questions (e.g. "What was your first car?"). Every answer to every question at every site should be different and every one of them should be wrong. ---rsk
Rich Kulawiec wrote on 11/10/2024 15:07:
Every answer to every question at every site should be different and every one of them should be wrong.
This approach does lead to interesting conversations with tech support people when you explain to them that your birthday is some time in the 1700s or 1800s. But a token is a token, right? Nick (fwiw, my cat's name is "ofo0tL1!Rgz8WPQ+")
On 10/11/24 07:19, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Rich Kulawiec wrote on 11/10/2024 15:07:
Every answer to every question at every site should be different and every one of them should be wrong.
This approach does lead to interesting conversations with tech support people when you explain to them that your birthday is some time in the 1700s or 1800s.
But a token is a token, right?
Nick (fwiw, my cat's name is "ofo0tL1!Rgz8WPQ+")
Comcast rep thought her computer was misbehaving because my "high school's name" looked like line noise. Awkward conversation with support when AT&T support wanted to confirm my email address (foo@ATTsucks.com).
On 10/11/24 16:35, Charles Polisher wrote:
On 10/11/24 07:19, Nick Hilliard wrote:
Rich Kulawiec wrote on 11/10/2024 15:07:
Every answer to every question at every site should be different and every one of them should be wrong.
This approach does lead to interesting conversations with tech support people when you explain to them that your birthday is some time in the 1700s or 1800s.
But a token is a token, right?
Nick (fwiw, my cat's name is "ofo0tL1!Rgz8WPQ+")
Comcast rep thought her computer was misbehaving because my "high school's name" looked like line noise.
Awkward conversation with support when AT&T support wanted to confirm my email address (foo@ATTsucks.com).
Unsurprisingly, that domain has been taken.
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
Pretty standard capitalism feature. Everyone wants to know what else they might be able to sell you. I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all
this information.
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind them of that fact. If you didn't , you're technically not entitled to software updates anyways. But just make something up for those fields, or create a new account from scratch. On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:28 AM chiel via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have an handful of Juniper devices (mx204 / QFX5100). I recently bought a new QFX5110 switch I want to update to a newer software release.
My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are "*$ Revenue Range*", "*# of Sales Reps*", "*# of Office Locations*". "*Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)*".
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with "*Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete*. "
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all this information.
I'm I do only one that feels this strongly about this?
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 16:36, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind them of that fact.
Not disputing, just curious. I assume you are talking about federal law in the US, can you be specific about what the law says? -- ++ytti
Not disputing, just curious. I assume you are talking about federal law in the US, can you be specific about what the law says?
Just standard contract law is all I was referring too. On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 9:55 AM Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 16:36, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind them of that fact.
Not disputing, just curious. I assume you are talking about federal law in the US, can you be specific about what the law says?
-- ++ytti
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 23:02, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Just standard contract law is all I was referring too.
More specifically, were you referring to the support contract Juniper wrote? What is the applicable part in the contract that you commonly need to remind Juniper about and helps you in procuring software updates?
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 16:36, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind them of that fact.
-- ++ytti
Sample here of a publicly accessible support contract : https://support.juniper.net/support/pdf/guidelines/juniper-care-service-desc... Section 3.2 is the relevant portion. In part : During the term of the Juniper Networks Service Contract, Juniper Networks
shall make available the Supported Updates (as defined below) to End User solely for support of the End User’s Supported Juniper Product, subject to the terms and conditions set forth below:
What is the applicable part in the contract that you commonly
need to remind Juniper about and helps you in procuring software updates?
I disagree with the premise here. I never said I 'commonly need to remind Juniper' about anything in relation to software updates. I was simply stating to the OP that if he had a support contract, and he's getting the runaround on access, reminding them of their contractual requirements may help move things along. On Sat, Oct 12, 2024 at 1:55 AM Saku Ytti <saku@ytti.fi> wrote:
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 23:02, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
Just standard contract law is all I was referring too.
More specifically, were you referring to the support contract Juniper wrote? What is the applicable part in the contract that you commonly need to remind Juniper about and helps you in procuring software updates?
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind
On Fri, 11 Oct 2024 at 16:36, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote: them of that fact.
-- ++ytti
On Sat, 12 Oct 2024 at 18:00, Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
I disagree with the premise here. I never said I 'commonly need to remind Juniper' about anything in relation to software updates. I was simply stating to the OP that if he had a support contract, and he's getting the runaround on access, reminding them of their contractual requirements may help move things along.
Understood. I was hoping something bit more than 'company must honor the terms and conditions they wrote', which thoroughly keeps vendor in the driver seat, as they can mandate customer to provide that information as part of service onboarding. So trying to push this is only likely to end up with more restrictive contract terms, and being in contract violation on lies. Slightly related, Cisco has as long as I remember (+20 years) provided security fixes without valid support contract, and I've always wondered why would they do this. I don't think other vendors (Juniper, Arista, Nokia) do it, so it seems unlikely Cisco is considering some legal liability derisking here. Perhaps just legacy good-will from era when they didn't really have competition. It would be possible to litigate vendors for security fixes on basis of duty of care, and you would likely win, if you can afford enough justice. But likely anyone in the position of wanting easier access to software cannot afford sufficient amount of justice. -- ++ytti
Insufficient oversight from management. Contact someone in the c-suite and report this "data mining." On Fri, Oct 11, 2024, 10:40 Tom Beecher <beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem
asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
Pretty standard capitalism feature. Everyone wants to know what else they might be able to sell you.
I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all
this information.
If you purchased a support contract with the switch, they are legally required to provide you access to software updates. You may wish to remind them of that fact.
If you didn't , you're technically not entitled to software updates anyways. But just make something up for those fields, or create a new account from scratch.
On Fri, Oct 11, 2024 at 5:28 AM chiel via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> wrote:
Hi,
I have an handful of Juniper devices (mx204 / QFX5100). I recently bought a new QFX5110 switch I want to update to a newer software release.
My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are "*$ Revenue Range*", "*# of Sales Reps*", "*# of Office Locations*". "*Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)*".
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with "*Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete*. "
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all this information.
I'm I do only one that feels this strongly about this?
Yes. It's dumb and shows how out of touch Juniper is with it's customers. Just make up some numbers. Tell them there's a billion dollars of opportunity in the pipeline and you have 1000 sales people. Aaron ------ Original Message ------
From "chiel via NANOG" <nanog@nanog.org> To nanog@nanog.org Date 10/11/2024 4:25:57 AM Subject Frustration with increasing information demands from Network Vendors
Hi,
I have an handful of Juniper devices (mx204 / QFX5100). I recently bought a new QFX5110 switch I want to update to a newer software release.
My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are " $ Revenue Range ", "# of Sales Reps", "# of Office Locations". " Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)".
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with " Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete . "
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all this information.
I'm I do only one that feels this strongly about this?
On 10/11/24 16:53, Aaron Wendel wrote:
Yes. It's dumb and shows how out of touch Juniper is with it's customers.
Cisco aren't any better, to be honest. They are all just finding clever ways to alienate long-standing loyal customers. Edgecore, UfiSpace, and them, are on their way to becoming more vital. Mark.
On 10/11/24 11:25, chiel via NANOG wrote:
Hi,
I have an handful of Juniper devices (mx204 / QFX5100). I recently bought a new QFX5110 switch I want to update to a newer software release.
My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are "/$ Revenue Range/", "/# of Sales Reps/", "/# of Office Locations/". "/Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)/".
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with "/Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete/. "
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
I just bought a single switch and I can't update it without sharing all this information.
I'm I do only one that feels this strongly about this?
Look forward to seeing what happens when HP finally take over... Mark.
Once upon a time, chiel via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org> said:
My account on the Juniper website seems to be disabled and therefor I send an email to customer care. They replied with a form that I have to fill in. A couple of of the questions are "/$ Revenue Range/", "/# of Sales Reps/", "/# of Office Locations/". "/Details of potential opportunities in progress (also Provide)/".
I only filled in the form with my own details (name, email address, etc..) and said I refused to give information about the other questions. Juniper (customer care) replied with "/Please note we need these details to reinstate the account. We can not proceed if the form is incomplete/. "
Send back that they are requesting company proprietary information, that you need a contact in Juniper's legal team to negotiate a non-disclosure agreement and a contract for sharing that data (and that said negotiations will be billed at $250/hour). -- Chris Adams <cma@cmadams.net>
On 10/11/24 02:25, chiel via NANOG wrote:
I really really really find it disgusting that companies have no problem asking for this kind of information!! Its not only Juniper but also other major brands.
This kind of marketing pervasiveness predates the Internet. Warranty registration postcards from the 1980s had similar questions. -- Jay Hennigan - jay@west.net Network Engineering - CCIE #7880 503 897-8550 - WB6RDV
participants (13)
-
Aaron Wendel -
Bryan Holloway -
Charles Polisher -
chiel -
Chris Adams -
Jay Hennigan -
Karl Auer -
Keith Christian -
Mark Tinka -
Nick Hilliard -
Rich Kulawiec -
Saku Ytti -
Tom Beecher