Hi, Greg: 1)    " ... The IETF has changed its position on several (IMO) key issues during its existence. ...  ":    Well said! In fact, I believe (from one of the APNIC blogs recounting the Internet history) that CG-NAT was one of those "bastards" who turned to be accepted as a prince whom everyone is defending him now, without realizing that an enhancement is at the front door steps again. Regards, Abe (2022-03-17 11:50) ------------------------------ NANOG Digest, Vol 170, Issue 19 Message: 34 Date: Wed, 16 Mar 2022 15:32:45 -0700 From: Greg Skinner<gregskinner0@icloud.com> To: Tom Beecher<beecher@beecher.cc> Cc:bzs@theworld.com, North American Network Operators' Group <nanog@nanog.org> Subject: Re: CC: s to Non List Members (was Re: 202203080924.AYC Re: 202203071610.AYC Re: Making Use of 240/4 NetBlock) Message-ID:<109DB49C-2471-4FE2-AC68-E4EEAFE1C886@icloud.com> Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" I have qualms about these drafts also. However, even if the IETF does not move forward with any of them (not even to adopt them as WG items), that doesn?t mean they never will. Times change. Circumstances change. The IETF has changed its position on several (IMO) key issues during its existence. Perhaps this will be one of those times. Incidentally, if you take a look at this post from Theodore Ts?o<https://mailarchive.ietf.org/arch/msg/ietf/IGKkL8IM1IptV4Q3Z3pko6OC1Xs/> he?s pretty much saying the same thing that Barry Shein said, that the IETF isn?t as good at policy as it is in producing protocol standards. (The thread it?s from started from a response to the publication of RFC2008<https://www.rfc-editor.org/rfc/rfc2008.txt> as a Best Current Practice, in spite of ?vigorous opposition?.) The other thing I wanted to say is for anyone who doesn?t know a lot about the IETF workings, the contributions of some of the authors of the Schoen drafts are recognized and respected in the IETF Transport Area. They?re not new to this stuff. They have ?clue?. They do due diligence. They produce running code, and (IMO) are seeking rough consensus. I believe that in the IETF of, say, a quarter century ago, their drafts would have progressed further through the standards process. For various reasons, today?s IETF is different, but could still change its minds. I believe the authors of the Schoen drafts are capable of drumming up support for their ideas even if they don?t (immediately) become IETF drafts, and that the IETF might change its position on their ideas, as a result of such support. ?gregbo

On Mar 16, 2022, at 5:28 AM, Tom Beecher<beecher@beecher.cc> wrote:

No quibble about the discussion happening on a NOG list, not at all.

But frankly unless the proposal is even starting to move forward in the IETF process such that a standards change is possible, it's just noise. ( I don't predict that the draft being discussed ever gets that far anyways ; it has serious deficiencies.)

On Sat, Mar 12, 2022 at 6:53 PM Greg Skinner via NANOG <nanog@nanog.org <mailto:nanog@nanog.org>> wrote: I agree. iMO, this 240/4 issue is another one of those tussles in cyberspace<https://david.choffnes.com/classes/cs4700fa14/papers/tussle.pdf>. But I don?t fault IETF people or anyone else who pursues technical solutions to these types of problems as long as they are open and honest about the limitations of these solutions.

Also, IMO, the value of having a discussion about this issue here (and other NOG forums) is to get the perspective of people who (generally speaking) deal more immediately with the problems the broader ?online" population has with IETF-based technology.

?gregbo

...

On Mar 8, 2022, at 9:25 PM,bzs@theworld.com <mailto:bzs@theworld.com> wrote:

I'm beginning to wonder if the internet will survive the ipv6 adoption debates.

Here's the real problem which you all can promptly ignore:

The IETF et al are full of bright technical people who can design protocols, packet formats, etc.

But many of the major problems facing the internet are not, at their core, engineering problems.

They're in the realm of social, legal, marketing, politics, int'l policy, governance, law enforcement, commerce, economics, sociology, psychology, etc. which TBH as bright as many of the engineers et al are these problems are way beyond their ken, occasional polymath excepted.

But first you have to admit you have a problem, and limitations.

Shouting at the rafters about address space depletion etc while waving RFCs may not quite do it.

Similar can be said about spam, malware attacks, phishing, etc.

Yet another cryptographic protocol probably won't save the day but as the expression goes when all you have is a hammer the whole world looks like a nail.

-- -Barry Shein

Software Tool & Die | bzs at TheWorld.com<http://theworld.com/> |http://www.TheWorld.com <http://www.theworld.com/> Purveyors to the Trade | Voice: +1 617-STD-WRLD | 800-THE-WRLD The World: Since 1989 | A Public Information Utility |*oo*