Subject: PLEEEEASE REMOVE ME FROM MAILING LISTS !
From: "Scott Amyoony" <[email-masked]>
To: <[email-masked]>
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 08:22:21 -0300

I have tried the mailman link, could not get password reset. PLEASE just remove me.

Thanks!

_____________________________________________
From: <[email-masked]> [mailto:[email-masked]] 
Sent: Friday, July 02, 2010 12:19 AM
To: <[email-masked]>
Subject: NANOG Digest, Vol 30, Issue 4

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: The Economist, cyber war issue (andrew.wallace)
   2. Re: The Economist, cyber war issue (Randy Bush)
   3. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right (Stefan Sp?hler)
   4. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right (William Herrin)
   5. Re: XO feedback (Stefan Molnar)
   6. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right (Matthew Walster)
   7. Re: SPANS Vs Taps (Darren Bolding)
   8. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right (Larry Sheldon)
   9. Re: SPANS Vs Taps (Ricky Beam)
  10. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right (Matthew Palmer)
  11. Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
      (Marshall Eubanks)
  12. Re: Type of network operators? (Martin Hannigan)

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Message: 1
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 14:51:20 -0700 (PDT)
From: "andrew.wallace" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Economist, cyber war issue
To: Jeroen van Aart <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

There is a part 2 as well http://www.economist.com/node/16478792?story_id=16478792

Andrew

----- Original Message ----
From: Jeroen van Aart <[email-masked]>
To: NANOG list <[email-masked]>
Sent: Thu, 1 July, 2010 19:57:08
Subject: Re: The Economist, cyber war issue

andrew.wallace wrote:
> Article: http://www.economist.com/node/16481504?story_id=16481504

I know it's shortsighted, but any article with the word cyber in it, used in such a way as being about "cyber this-or-that", already lost its credibility by virtue of using the word. It must be a of rather high quality to win back its credibility. This economist article sadly does the opposite.

Regards,
Jeroen

-- http://goldmark.org/jeff/stupid-disclaimers/

      

------------------------------

Message: 2
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 07:01:02 +0900
From: Randy Bush <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: The Economist, cyber war issue
To: "andrew.wallace" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII

> There is a part 2 as well

and this is a bug or a feature?

------------------------------

Message: 3
Date: Fri, 02 Jul 2010 00:05:36 +0200
From: Stefan Sp?hler <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 07/01/2010 02:04 PM, Gadi Evron wrote:
> http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/07/01/finland.broadband/index.html?hpt=T2
> 
> 
> Interesting...
>
Finland isn't first.

http://www.comcom.admin.ch/aktuell/00429/00457/00560/index.html?lang=en&msg-id=13239

------------------------------

Message: 4
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 18:17:43 -0400
From: William Herrin <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: Gadi Evron <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID:
	<[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Gadi Evron <[email-masked]> wrote:
> http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/07/01/finland.broadband/index.html?hpt=T2

In the US, the Communications Act of 1934 brought about the creation
of the "Universal Service Fund." The idea, more or less, was that
every phone line customer contributed to the fund (you'll find it
itemized on your phone bill) and the phone companies had to charge the
same for every phone line regardless of where delivered in their
territory but when initially installing an unusually difficult
(expensive) phone line the phone company was entitled to reimburse its
cost from the fund.

In 1996 a certain inventor of the Internet decided that the universal
service fund needed to pay for PCs in rural schools (the "E-Rate"
program) instead of improving rural communications...

-- 
William D. Herrin ................ [email-masked]  [email-masked]
3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
Falls Church, VA 22042-3004

------------------------------

Message: 5
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 15:21:25 -0700 (PDT)
From: Stefan Molnar <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: XO feedback
To: Net <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <20100701150758.T81245@clockwork>
Content-Type: TEXT/PLAIN; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

XO has many downs than ups.   I am a current XO customer mainly due to the 
costs, having voice, PtP, Transit, and Co-Location.

Here is my rundown.

Internet Transit:  Yes it works, and when their routing goes ape, no one 
knows what is going on.  They have a tendency not to do a "wr mem" on 
their ciscos.

Point to Point:  Yes it works, but when they have to take an OC12 or some 
large circuit down you might be notified the day of.  Also if you have 
more than one circuit with them, finding what circuit will be hit takes 
ages on their side.

Co-Location:  One crap shoot close to death.  A "change control" group has 
to approve changes, adds, and you as a customer has zero say.

Call Center:  I feel like Mr. Bean is running the call center.  Depending 
on who you call, and when they last did trainning you will get a wild 
range of responces.  Even for the simplest of things takes about 20 min to 
make a ticket, and some have taken past 40min.

Voice:  Random failures of not being able to reach cell phone carriers. 
Random issues where some trunk lines just go offline.  But to XO it is 
always the customer hardware.  Another great feature if you have a trouble 
ticket and in part of correcting the issue if some other change was 
introduced an automated system will back out any changes weeks later.

It is one of those things in life you deal with because the tradeoff is 
something execs see as the monthly OPEX costs.

Stefan

On Thu, 1 Jul 2010, Net wrote:

> Hi,
>
> We're currently looking to buy transit from XO for one of our DCs.
> Their pricing is very competative compared to some of the other
> providers we've considered to date.
>
> I'm hoping to get some feedback on their services, support, peering
> arrangements and the overall stability of their core backbone network
> from folks who've had experience or currently using them.
>
> Any info would be greatly appreciated.
>
> Thanks in advance
>
> -- 
> Sent from my mobile device
>
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 6
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 00:14:42 +0100
From: Matthew Walster <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: nanog list <[email-masked]>
Message-ID:
	<[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8

On 1 July 2010 23:17, William Herrin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> In 1996 a certain inventor of the Internet decided that the universal
> service fund needed to pay for PCs in rural schools (the "E-Rate"
> program) instead of improving rural communications...

As someone who's always been in the "tech" field, the amount spent on
ICT in schools has always shocked and appalled me.

Bring back the Acorn Archimedes and ECONET!

M

------------------------------

Message: 7
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 16:24:38 -0700
From: Darren Bolding <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPANS Vs Taps
To: "Bein, Matthew" <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID:
	<[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Tap manufactures will be sure to tell you of many issues.

The main concern I would have is that it is possible for a switch to drop
frames of a SPAN.  Your decision might be influenced based on your
application and the impact of such errors (billing, lawful intercept,
forensics).

A tap vendors take: http://www.networkcritical.com/What-are-Network-Taps

On a somewhat related note, I will mention that TNAPI from ntop is quite
handy.   http://www.ntop.org/TNAPI.html

<http://www.networkcritical.com/What-are-Network-Taps>--D

On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Bein, Matthew <[email-masked]> wrote:

> As I was doing a design today. I found that I had a bunch of 100 MB
> connections that I was going to bring into a aggregation tap. Then I was
> thinking, why don't I use a switch like a Cisco 3560 to gain more
> density. Anyone run into this? Any down falls with using a switch to
> aggregate instead of a true port aggregator??
>
>
>
> Regards,
>
>
>
> Matthew
>
>

-- 
--  Darren Bolding                  --
--  [email-masked]           --

------------------------------

Message: 8
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 18:25:52 -0500
From: Larry Sheldon <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

On 7/1/2010 18:14, Matthew Walster wrote:
> On 1 July 2010 23:17, William Herrin <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> In 1996 a certain inventor of the Internet decided that the universal
>> service fund needed to pay for PCs in rural schools (the "E-Rate"
>> program) instead of improving rural communications...
> 
> As someone who's always been in the "tech" field, the amount spent on
> ICT in schools has always shocked and appalled me.
> 
> Bring back the Acorn Archimedes and ECONET!

Does anybody know how much the Big Sky Telegraph cost, and who paid for it?

-- 
Somebody should have said:
A democracy is two wolves and a lamb voting on what to have for dinner.

Freedom under a constitutional republic is a well armed lamb contesting
the vote.

Requiescas in pace o email
Ex turpi causa non oritur actio
Eppure si rinfresca

ICBM Targeting Information:  http://tinyurl.com/4sqczs
http://tinyurl.com/7tp8ml

------------------------------

Message: 9
Date: Thu, 01 Jul 2010 20:50:40 -0400
From: "Ricky Beam" <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: SPANS Vs Taps
To: "Darren Bolding" <[email-masked]>, "Bein, Matthew"
	<[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii; format=flowed; delsp=yes

On Thu, 01 Jul 2010 19:24:38 -0400, Darren Bolding <[email-masked]>  
wrote:
> Tap manufactures will be sure to tell you of many issues.

Well, there are issues on both sides...

A true tap is an electronic mirror.  It doesn't much care what the signal  
is; whatever it senses, it replicates.  As the OP is talking about an  
aggrigating tap, he's already using a switch.  I've used NetworkCritical,  
NetOptics, and several other "cheap" taps.  None of them are even remotely  
cheap.  That said, use an ethernet switch...

> The main concern I would have is that it is possible for a switch to drop
> frames of a SPAN.  Your decision might be influenced based on your
> application and the impact of such errors (billing, lawful intercept,
> forensics).

Yes, a switch can drop traffic (inbound and out.)  But so can a tap.  And  
so can the thing listening to the tap.

At work I'm configuring an integrate Broadcom 10G switch (SoC) as a pure  
mirror.  The ports wired to the system form a trunk group which is the  
destination for the mirror of the external ports.  This is exactly what  
you'll find inside $$$$$ commercial multiport aggrigating "taps". (and  
btw, we've thrown over 1Mpps at it without issue; ~50% 64byte packets, the  
bane of any switch.  (recorded) real world traffic, not some Spirent  
simulation.)

--Ricky

------------------------------

Message: 10
Date: Fri, 2 Jul 2010 11:54:52 +1000
From: Matthew Palmer <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii

On Fri, Jul 02, 2010 at 12:14:42AM +0100, Matthew Walster wrote:
> On 1 July 2010 23:17, William Herrin <[email-masked]> wrote:
> > In 1996 a certain inventor of the Internet decided that the universal
> > service fund needed to pay for PCs in rural schools (the "E-Rate"
> > program) instead of improving rural communications...
> 
> As someone who's always been in the "tech" field, the amount spent on
> ICT in schools has always shocked and appalled me.

Don't get me started on ICT in schools.  Please.

- Matt

-- 
<Igloo> I remember going to my first tutorial in room 404. I was most upset
when I found it.

------------------------------

Message: 11
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 22:33:57 -0400
From: Marshall Eubanks <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Finland makes broadband access a legal right
To: William Herrin <[email-masked]>
Cc: [email-masked]
Message-ID: <[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII; format=flowed

On Jul 1, 2010, at 6:17 PM, William Herrin wrote:

> On Thu, Jul 1, 2010 at 8:04 AM, Gadi Evron <[email-masked]> wrote:
>> http://edition.cnn.com/2010/TECH/web/07/01/finland.broadband/index.html?hpt=T2
>
> In the US, the Communications Act of 1934 brought about the creation
> of the "Universal Service Fund." The idea, more or less, was that
> every phone line customer contributed to the fund (you'll find it
> itemized on your phone bill) and the phone companies had to charge the
> same for every phone line regardless of where delivered in their
> territory but when initially installing an unusually difficult
> (expensive) phone line the phone company was entitled to reimburse its
> cost from the fund.
>
> In 1996 a certain inventor of the Internet decided that the universal
> service fund needed to pay for PCs in rural schools (the "E-Rate"
> program) instead of improving rural communications...
>
>

Sen. Larry Pressler (R-S.D.) invented the Internet ?

Regards
Marshall

>
> -- 
> William D. Herrin ................ [email-masked]  [email-masked]
> 3005 Crane Dr. ...................... Web: <http://bill.herrin.us/>
> Falls Church, VA 22042-3004
>
>

------------------------------

Message: 12
Date: Thu, 1 Jul 2010 23:18:45 -0400
From: Martin Hannigan <[email-masked]>
Subject: Re: Type of network operators?
To: Butch Evans <[email-masked]>, [email-masked]
Message-ID:
	<[email-masked]>
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1

Thanks. Your observations are good related to active posters. The
overall list is very diverse. Aside from the active posters, the list
is about 10K strong. Everything from AOL to people from Zoos,  law
enforcement, banks, and any industry you can think of.  NANOG is not
just a list, but an interesting hodge podge of builders and occupants
of the Internet that sometimes make sense. :-)

As Paul Wall might say, Drive Slow.

Best,

Marty

On 7/1/10, Butch Evans <[email-masked]> wrote:
> I have been on this list for about 2 weeks, just observing the
>         discussions.  I have primarily worked with wireless service
>         providers in
>         the past who are fairly low budget operators.  Some of the
>         things I've
>         observed about this group are:
>
>         * This list seems to be populated by better funded operations
>         (whether
>         that means larger or just better at getting funding may remain
>         to be
>         seen)
>
>         * Most of the operators on this list seem to be pretty good at
>         their
>         work and the questions seem to revolve around more complex
>         issues
>
>         * There seems to be a number of corporate network operators on
>         this list
>         as opposed to access network operators (such as ISPs and such)
>
>         I hope you all don't take this as an affront and get offended,
>         as that's
>         not my intent.  I am just making some simple observations.
>
>         Having said this, I wanted to introduce myself and see if this
>         is a list
>         that I need to participate in actively.  I am a network engineer
>         and
>         consultant.  I have worked in the past with Cisco, Juniper and
>         other
>         similar "higher end" type devices, but it's been a while since I
>         had
>         customers who use that gear.  Most of my current customer base
>         are
>         smaller operators who can pinch a penny in half.  :-)
>
>         I do a lot of work with MikroTik RouterOS, ImageStream and other
>         Linux
>         based devices.  I do engineering, training, hardware sales and
>         such for
>         networks all over the world.  I am likely to continue to monitor
>         the
>         list for questions that are in my area of expertise, but
>         wondered if
>         these devices I mention are "common" to operators on this list.
>         I know
>         that I have not caught a discussion that involved any of them so
>         far
>         (other than one reference to an OpenBSD solution a day or two
>         ago).
>
>         Anyway, hello to the list and I look forward to finding a home
>         among
>         this group.
>
>
>
>

------------------------------

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************************************