Actually, the tendency I've seen in most non-ISP companies is that the companies shell out an increasing amount of money for progressively less clue, dump more and more work on a shrinking staff, and continue to ignore everything they say. Maybe ISPs/Telcos are different. I don't believe clue is getting sparse; I think that the clueful refuse to work for non-clued management, and they're getting better at spotting it and realizing that obscene salaries really aren't worth putting up with all the BS. As Randy said, clue attracts clue. S Stephen Sprunk, K5SSS, CCIE#3723 Network Consulting Engineer Cisco NSA Dallas, Texas, USA e-mail:ssprunk@cisco.com Pager: +1 800 365-4578 Empowering the Internet Generation ----- Original Message ----- From: Vadim Antonov To: michael@memra.com ; nanog@merit.edu Sent: Monday, August 23, 1999 1:41 Subject: Re: Tech contact for Qwest? [snip] PS Actually, i do not see shortage of clueful network engineers. What i see is complete lack of clueful managers. Engineers are often left without any useful managerial support, and all too often are simply screwed up by the bad management. That's why i think the fact that good engineers are getting more expensive is positive. When management if forced to pay through the nose for the professional expertise, they more likely feel compelled to follow the offered advice.