Just reread your note about 5KVA and 220 again, Eaton LFP 1.5 to 6KVA available in one model line here with capabilities you could need - https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-p... - though i'm sure they cost a lot..... but that's just one example of many. As to "additional" BMS, drop-in replacement cells have a built in BMS - you just must make sure the drop-in replacement is rated for the load it may have to supply. You just don't get as much 'intelligent' data out of it, since the BMS is inside the case with the cells, so all you have "access" to is voltage at the terminals, usually, just like a standard SLA. I speak of units like these: https://dakotalithium.com/product/dakota-lithium-12v-10ah-battery/ where you would use them in most any capacity you would a standard SLA battery without changing chargers, equipment, or anything else external, since the BMS is integral to the battery. The important thing to note about those, though - is the ratings. "10A max, 14.4V recommended" for charging and "20A max continuous, 50A max 300 mS pulse." for discharge, in this example. So when shopping for that kind of cell, those are the maximum charge/discharge rates of the integral BMS. When doing swap in replacements, ensuring that you are within those specs is important. Bringing your own BMS comes into play when you start buying individual cells, such as these and assembling your own battery banks as I tend to do - https://imrbatteries.com/products/eve-lf105-105ah-3-2v-lifepo4-prismatic-bat... - because that is just a bare 3.2v LFP cell, no protections of any kind, for integrating into your own product/system. Four of those and a good BMS would give you a 105Ah replacement for a 12V battery in approximately half the space. I assemble them into multi-power-output systems for camping and solar equipment. -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sparkes via NANOG <nanog@lists.nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2025 5:21 AM To: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com>; North American Network Operators Group <nanog@lists.nanog.org>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> Cc: Gary Sparkes <gary@kisaracorporation.com> Subject: [NANOG] Re: Small Capacity UPS So, they're all selling LFP units. LFP is a type of lithium-ion battery. I could (and do) call a LiFePo4 cell a lithium-ion battery and be 100% correct - because it is. LiPo's, NMC/PO4 (be it in 18650 or other formfactor, etc), LFP, you name it, they're all lithium-ion batteries because that's the mechanism they operate by. They're just different chemistries and formfactors of lithium-ion batteries. https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-dist... This liebert information sheet (second link of products after eaton in my list) - https://www.vertiv.com/491005/globalassets/products/critical-power/uninterru... - from this information sheet - "Safe and Reliable: Both VRLA and Li-ion ensure safety and reliability. Lithium-Ion (LiFePO4) battery chemistry is safest and integrated battery management system (BMS) also ensures safe and reliable operation." The few APC MSDS (Materials Safety Data Sheet) sheets I glanced at indicate Lithium Iron Phosphate as the cell ingredient as well - which means LFP chemistry. So they're shipping LiFePo4 cells as well. Weird they didn't make it (easier) to find that, though. https://www.apc.com/us/en/faqs/FA158828/ - I looked at XBP48RM2U-LI_NAM_EN_SDSV1.0.pdf and SMTL750_1000_1500_LI_EU_EN_SDS_V2.0 (1).pdf That second sheet shows that https://www.apc.com/us/en/product/SMTL750RM2UC/apc-smartups-line-interactive-750va-lithiumion-rack-tower-2u-120v-6x-nema-515r-outlets-smartconnect-port+smartslot-short-depth-avr-lcd/?range=61915-smartups&parent-subcategory-id=88976&selectedNodeId=23679172486 is a LFP based UPS system. Though not all models - you can see from APCRBC173-LI_NAM_EN_SDS_V1.3.pdf that specific pack is NMC. So you'd just have to investigate each model to see what it is. So yes, all four are selling LFP units, though APC seems to be a bit harder to pick out which is which, not that it really matters much anymore from a safety perspective, but if it concerns you, the information IS available. I'd feel perfectly comfortable with any of them technology wise these days (and in the past, too) though. -----Original Message----- From: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2025 4:57 AM To: Gary Sparkes <gary@kisaracorporation.com>; North American Network Operators Group <nanog@lists.nanog.org>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> Subject: RE: [NANOG] Re: Small Capacity UPS Your first 3 UPSes are lithium-ion. I am scared of lithium-ion in the apartment. Your last URL is for LFP. Thanks! But it is for 110V (I need 220V), and 3kVA is too small for my needs. Looks like I need to search again. I would not agree that dependency on the quality of an additional BMS is a good thing. And additional BMS should cost additional money that could be big enough for 5kVA. It is for sure not an optimal solution. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: Gary Sparkes <gary@kisaracorporation.com> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2025 11:27 To: North American Network Operators Group <nanog@lists.nanog.org>; Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> Cc: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> Subject: RE: [NANOG] Re: Small Capacity UPS There are some of the big boys who are doing LFP - Eaton does so for example - a whole line of them.. https://www.eaton.com/us/en-us/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-dist... Vertiv/Leibert - https://www.vertiv.com/en-us/solutions/learn-about/vertiv-lithium-ion-ups/ APC - https://www.apc.com/us/en/campaign/lithium-ion-ups.jsp Even cyberpower - https://www.cyberpowersystems.com/promotions/smart-app-sinewave-lithium-ups/ I recall shopping lithium UPSes over many, many years - some that weren't LFP at all, but even then, much higher density than LFP can provide. Also big name manufacturers at the times. I'm thinking back to say, 2015 maybe? NMC as mentioned, and yes, even in lipo types as well. The innovation is there, if you can afford it - it's still more expensive than SLA just on virtue of the cell costs, alone. Space savings may or may not be worth it to you, longevity argument may win the budget fight, it may not - sometimes spending $X every 2-3 years is a better option for cashflow reasons than spending $2*X for 5-8 years. Then again.... LFP support is a given in almost any UPS since you can have drop-in replacement cells. If it's a lead-acid UPS, it's a LFP UPS. No need to hack on a BMS unless you're building the entire UPS yourself - the drop-in replacement cells have them built in. LFP UPSes from the mainstreams like above may have the BMS system integrated into something other than the cells, but likely it's part of the entire battery module instead and swapped when you swap packs - so the fundamental UPS itself remains the same barring metering/reporting circuitry to talk to the BMS. Just swapping out my rackmount tripplites was 2x the cost for LFP cells to replace the SLA cells, and I only went from 9Ah per cell to 10Ah. Though, justifiably, I did not have to swap UPSes and should not have to swap batteries for another 8-10 years, plus a slightly extended runtime. So my ROI is approximately 4-5 years. -----Original Message----- From: Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG <nanog@lists.nanog.org> Sent: Wednesday, April 9, 2025 2:31 AM To: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa>; North American Network Operators Group <nanog@lists.nanog.org> Cc: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> Subject: [NANOG] Re: Small Capacity UPS Thanks to many people for good references! I hope you would agree that it is a clumsy patch to add BMS between the UPS/Inverter and the battery. But we have no choice. Why has the industry stopped innovating? I recently searched for inverters and/or UPSes, specifically looking for LFP support - I have found nothing. Why do we need to customize it ourselves? I would not believe that product managers in APC (and many other vendors) have missed the existence of LFP. I did assume that any vendor not supporting LFP our days should go out of the market very fast. It looks like vendors are not developing anything because they are preparing for an inevitable shutdown (losing market to well-known competitors). IMHO: vendors are accelerating their death in this way. It may be some patent, but I doubt that a patent could completely block innovations. Eduard -----Original Message----- From: Mark Tinka <mark@tinka.africa> Sent: Monday, April 7, 2025 12:32 To: North American Network Operators Group <nanog@lists.nanog.org> Cc: Vasilenko Eduard <vasilenko.eduard@huawei.com> Subject: Re: [NANOG] Re: Small Capacity UPS On 4/7/25 08:30, Vasilenko Eduard via NANOG wrote:
lithium is a)expensive, b)dangerous (it could quickly burn your house), c)would be dead in 4 years. We're talking about stationery; it's not wearable, right? Then there are many LiFePO batteries on the market.
Ummh, the Li in LiFePO4 (a.k.a LFP) is Lithium. Li-Ion batteries come in all manner of chemistries, where different materials may be chosen for the cathode. While there are a number of them, the most common ones are NMC (Nickel Manganese Cobalt) and PO4 (Phosphate). NMC has generally been used in EV's due to its high energy density, but OEM's have now started moving to LFP for this, where LFP was traditionally used for stationery applications (home backup, for example) due its higher safety properties. LFP is cheaper than NMC. And while NMC will provide fewer cycles than LFP, the time period will vary based on usage, even with factoring in calendar aging. Mark. _______________________________________________ NANOG mailing list https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog@lists.nanog.org/message/5AHCONMM... _______________________________________________ NANOG mailing list https://lists.nanog.org/archives/list/nanog@lists.nanog.org/message/VU42GFWI...