I think all of these big companies lack a meaningful feedback loop from reasonably vetted people, lending credibility to their feedback. Most of them don't provide the tools to diagnose, nor have the ability to receive support requests. Not just SPAM, but all kinds of sanitation type services. ----- Mike Hammett Intelligent Computing Solutions Midwest Internet Exchange The Brothers WISP ----- Original Message ----- From: "Tom Beecher via NANOG" <nanog@lists.nanog.org> To: "North American Network Operators Group" <nanog@lists.nanog.org> Cc: "Marco Moock" <mm@dorfdsl.de>, "Tom Beecher" <beecher@beecher.cc> Sent: Friday, August 15, 2025 9:54:26 AM Subject: Re: Worsening google service reputation and abuse Yeah, it's a bit much to assert that G "wants" things this way. It's kind of a big FU to the people who do work on this stuff full time. Heard the same thing about Y for years, how we 'support spammers' , how we 'don't care', and 'never did anything'. All the while our anti-spam teams came up with absurdly genius ways to handle these problems that only people in that space ever knew about. The amount of shit spam that people don't see is many, many orders of magnitude more than what gets through. Email spam has been a problem for more than 30 years at this point. The fact that a ton of really smart people have worked on this for that long, and it's still an issue, should be a huge indicator that it's a complex issue with no easy solutions. Could Y have done many things better? Sure. Could Google be doing many things better? Sure. Nobody is perfect. Can we ask them to be better? Yes, we should. But assertions that companies *WANT* these problems to exist is , honestly, pretty damn ignorant. On Fri, Aug 15, 2025 at 10:27 AM Jared Mauch via NANOG < nanog@lists.nanog.org> wrote:
On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 12:23:26PM -0400, Christopher Morrow via NANOG wrote:
On Thu, Aug 14, 2025 at 11:16 AM Marco Moock via NANOG <nanog@lists.nanog.org> wrote:
On 14.08.2025 10:41 Jared Mauch via NANOG <nanog@lists.nanog.org>
wrote:
Is there anyone at Google that is able to address the ongoing abuse problems that are coming out of your services like classroom, groups and otherwise?
(with the caveat that i don't know anything about classroom, or groups really, but had walked down this path with reader back-when)
The problem(s) from jared's original mail SOUND like a broken thing in some services that PROBABLY tried to provide protections, those either missed the mark or work broken along some timeline... and maybe need some attention to fix/course-correct.
yeah, i think there's a subtle thing here where the expectation is that someone will be willing to opt-in or add *all* the addresses that may end up in their mailbox, while i as postmaster need some way to say "hey these well-formatted list-like things maybe shouldn't be put on lists/groups/whatnot on your side"
It is a well know issue of a company named Google that supports spammers.
It took months months until they switched of Google Groups Newsgroups It was being flooded with millions of spam posts and nobody took action.
Google wants it that way.
I don't think this is accurate.
I agree, hence the note, but I think there's an element of this is a weird corner case that needs some [minor] attention to improve things.
I may one day need access to google classroom, but not in the role/nature that I'm getting the mails today, and I don't want to toss all of google to /dev/null.
This also isn't quite a google only problem, I see the same thing from outlook/o365/hotmail but to a lesser extent. YMMV.
- Jared
-- Jared Mauch | pgp key available via finger from jared@puck.nether.net clue++; | http://puck.nether.net/~jared/ My statements are only mine. _______________________________________________ NANOG mailing list
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