PJ> Date: Wed, 15 Feb 2006 23:41:15 +0000 (GMT) PJ> From: Paul Jakma PJ> <aside: text below seems to reply to me specifically, but for some strange PJ> reason you decided to strip my address from your reply.> That portion did, but the rest of my message did not. VZW's 1xRTT service was getting ugly, so I didn't re-paste your headers from the original message. PJ> > BTW, Paul, FixedOrbit reports 701 as having ~1500 peers and downstreams. PJ> > As interconnected as even they are, that's still a far cry from the PJ> > full-mesh O(N^2) situation you seemed to suggest. PJ> PJ> I'm not sure what bearing any specific number has on O(n^2) behaviour. O(N^2) only becomes problematic [when it actually happens and] when the net result is large. For a given N, O(N^2) can be smaller thatn O(ln N) if the latter has a smaller coefficient. Moreover, I'm convinced the problem isn't O(N^2) in practice. Someone with more math skills than any poster in this thread (self included) needs to weigh in, but... again... Empirically speaking, how many different transits service the same geographic areas _and_ will share a downstream? "Lots" of providers in 1 Wilshire, Telehouse NY, PAIX, et cetera, yet any of those locations is lucky to have 1% of the total transit networks. I'll spell it out again: In reality, one need not worry about each transit AS sharing an ASN with every other transit AS. The Internet is not a full mesh, peering is not full-mesh, and it baffles me no end why so many people think coop ASNs _would_ be full mesh. Stop. Examine. Think. Then respond. PJ> However, if you want to look at specific numbers, plug '10' in there, then PJ> try '20'. I started out with 100. See previous posts. Now, show me the market with 100 ASes where downstreams will connect to every last combination of them. BTW: With the status quo, each downstream needs its own ASN and announces its own prefixes. Let's also keep in mind the self-bounding nature of the problem. Hint: 30k transit ASes * 30k transit ASes / 2 = 450M combinations Does anyone here really believe that 450M people will dual home, and that _all_ will have _separate_ provider combinations? Coop ASNs/IP save ASNs and aggregate routes. Full stop. Eddy -- Everquick Internet - http://www.everquick.net/ A division of Brotsman & Dreger, Inc. - http://www.brotsman.com/ Bandwidth, consulting, e-commerce, hosting, and network building Phone: +1 785 865 5885 Lawrence and [inter]national Phone: +1 316 794 8922 Wichita ________________________________________________________________________ DO NOT send mail to the following addresses: davidc@brics.com -*- jfconmaapaq@intc.net -*- sam@everquick.net Sending mail to spambait addresses is a great way to get blocked. Ditto for broken OOO autoresponders and foolish AV software backscatter.